new cultivar?

[will9]

Hallo all, 3 years ago i become a plant off sawtooth,i place this in my bog garden .The next winter it become temps under -22 frost and after this the plant where disapear,in spring he came back like this,i now have this 2 yaers and it s very stabile and is totaly winter hardy .The plant is also very vigourous and not hard to cultivate.The biggest trap i ever see is only 1 cm big and looks like a normal trap and theeths off sawtooth,i not know this but this is meaby a new cultivar and in this case i will named Belgian mini sawtooth if i can give it a name att all?See for yourself the pics

in pot is a normall sawtooth,plants don t loose there leafs last heavy winter and looks tesame like before winter

I hope you like it

cheers Willy

Edited June 4, 2010 by will9

[Phil Green]

PLEASE, do not give this a new name - you got it as 'sawtooth' and that is what it is. Something about your conditions just makes it grow small. But it probably wouldn't under other peoples conditions.

[will9]

PLEASE, do not give this a new name - you got it as 'sawtooth' and that is what it is. Something about your conditions just makes it grow small. But it probably wouldn't under other peoples conditions.

Hi Phil ,i have cultivate it in my greenhousse and in my bog garden for allmost 2 years now ,it s make no difference ,this plant become not bigger it s a spontane chance after it s frosen allmost to dead and it not chance anymore ,it s stay next to the plant you see on the foto in my greenhouse for 1,5 year,the normal grows normall ,i have take a foto from a normal together whit this ,why grow this normal and the other not?who can give names ,or can everybody give names ?Some people have plants whit some different theets and give this a name like dracula ,sharks teeth etc. Why not give this a name?Meaby this is to little and you can only give names to bigger ones.When can i give this a name,can you tell this ?After distribution ? eden black where also first a normall,why not hold normal name in this case to ,this can be chanced also under other conditions!All different forms came out off normal plants,or from crossing or spontane chances,so what different whit this?

Cheers Willy

Edited June 4, 2010 by will9

[numpty]

who can give names ,or can everybody give names ?Some people have plants whit some different theets and give this a name like dracula ,sharks teeth etc. Why not give this a name?Meaby this is to little and you can only give names to bigger ones.When can i give this a name,can you tell this ?After distribution ? eden black where also first a normall,why not hold normal name in this case to ,this can be chanced also under other conditions!All different forms came out off normal plants,or from crossing or spontane chances,so what different whit this?

Did you buy this plant as a Sawtooth, or is it a division of a Sawtooth? In either case, it's still a Sawtooth. A new cultivar comes from crossing plants and getting a new plant with a new genetic makeup that gives it interesting characteristics ... the fact that your plant had a bad winter and came back growing in a smaller form hasn't changed its genetic character.

'Eden Black' was the result of a cross between a normal form and a "Dudley Watts" (as far as I'm aware). It wasn't just a normal that suddenly started growing darker than usual.

[will9]

Did you buy this plant as a Sawtooth, or is it a division of a Sawtooth? In either case, it's still a Sawtooth. A new cultivar comes from crossing plants and getting a new plant with a new genetic makeup that gives it interesting characteristics ... the fact that your plant had a bad winter and came back growing in a smaller form hasn't changed its genetic character.

'Eden Black' was the result of a cross between a normal form and a "Dudley Watts" (as far as I'm aware). It wasn't just a normal that suddenly started growing darker than usual.

I not know iff this came from a division,plant where totaly away,meaby from seeds ?but you can not make a mini sawtooth whitout a sawtooth,how have make sawtooth UK1 and sawtooth UK 2,whitout sawtooth?This plant is stabil for more then a year now ,meaby i must wait another year or two for see whats happend?I have 4 other sawtooths that grow very normall ,this one does not!How have make B52 ,inot see any difference between a B52 and a normal as young plant.Meaby if some cultivate condition are not good you have a normal for good?How is make miniaturni(Italian ?) and miniature(Englisch ?) and what is the difference,why can this not a miniatur sawtooth be?Many Questions for me,but iff this is not a intresting plant for collectors then i let it be and let stay this only for me, For so far i know there are no var. in cephalotus ,so what s Dudley Watts ?All forms of cephalotus came out off normall cephalotus ,how can you make then cultivars?The same whit dionea there is only one var :muscipula ,how are make all this cultivars out off only one var?Meaby this are foolisch questions but i not understud this !

Cheers Willy

Edited June 4, 2010 by will9

[Phil Green]

These different 'cultivars' formally named and informally named are all originally seed grown plants that proved themselves to be different to the 'normal' type - this is what happens with SEX - the genes get mixed around and swapped and so the babies can look different to their mum and dad and brothers and sisters. Just as you look different to your dad.

They are not JUST a clone/ division / cutting from another plant. But, when the same plant is grown in different conditions, that can cause them to 'look' different to each other. This does not make them different 'clones', it is only the growing conditions that makes them different - not their genes.

You can only make a new clone by seed. Grow some of your sawtooth in a pot in the greenhouse, give some to a friend to grow and see the results after a couple of years. Just because yours in your bog has stayed small for a year, doesn't make it 'stable'.

If you were to sell divisions as a miniture sawtooth and it grows to normal size for other people, you would have a lot of very angry customers

[mobile]

A cultivar is an assemblage of plants that (a) has been selected for a particular character or combination of characters, (b) is distinct, uniform and stable in those characters, and © when propagated by appropriate means, retains those characters.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultivar

Dionaea muscipula ‘Petite Dragon’ might be a good analogy here, as it was initially receive as Dionaea ‘Red Dragon’ (‘Akai Ryu’).

[will9]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultivar

Dionaea muscipula ‘Petite Dragon’ might be a good analogy here, as it was initially receive as Dionaea ‘Red Dragon’ (‘Akai Ryu’).

My Question is more ,how do you make cultivars from only 1 variteit if mutation or other chance from this not be cultivars ,how to start whit this iff you only can cross muscipula whit muscipula .Like i understud i have sawtooth ,it must be sawtooth because i start whit sawtooth,spontane mutation are not reasson for make a cultivar ?so how start this ,from where came all this cultivars? The first cultivation of dionea become from muscipula ,must this not stay muscipula then?

I am not a botanist,a foolisch ?meaby

someone will trying this cultivate in England for seeing in other conditions ,i not know the difference whit Belgian and Englisch climate,is there any?4 sawtooths have the riht growing condition the 5 the not???

I don t think i get answhere on my Questions ,because no one knows this,or want to know.So i think this is not a intresting plant for cultivation ,meaby whitin a few years if another but well know grower have tesame plant it became a intresting cultivare?For now i think i let this so and go enjoy my plants ,

Plant whitout teeth is match more intresting!! i want one too

Cheers Willy

[publicizer]

have u try a leaf cutting?or try to divide this plant?

try to grow it in different conditions.

[mantrid]

spontane mutation are not reasson for make a cultivar ?so how start this ,from where came all this cultivars? The first cultivation of dionea become from muscipula ,must this not stay muscipula then?

I am not a botanist,a foolisch ?meaby

Genetic variation exists between plants derived from seed, even those from the same parents. This happens because a number of different changes (mutations) in the genes takes place during gamete formation (crossing over, deletions, substitutions etc from what I remember) and even after fertilisation. In addition to this the offspring have a mixture of different genes from both parents.

These changes in the genes are usually small, and visible differences in the plants are also small. Sometimes the mutations can be fatal resulting in the seed not germinating or dying shortly afterwards. Vary rarely a mutation will occur that results in a noticable difference, this is how new cultivars arise.

However, your plant was sold to you as a sawtooth, which if the seller was being responsible would have been a division from another sawtooth (therefore genetically identical). So you have a sawtooth and it will remain a sawtooth. Any observed differences are due to environmental factors. You said it had a hard winter. I would think that this is the reson it is small. As the summer goes on it should increase in size.

[toimeme]

i think like mantrid.

and if you have one small sawtooth, it's not new, plantev sold one plant called "small sawtooth".

[will9]

However, your plant was sold to you as a sawtooth, which if the seller was being responsible would have been a division from another sawtooth (therefore genetically identical). So you have a sawtooth and it will remain a sawtooth. Any observed differences are due to environmental factors. You said it had a hard winter. I would think that this is the reson it is small. As the summer goes on it should increase in size.

Please people raed what i say ,for last time ,this form is also for allmost 2 years ,it have a summer allready ,this is second summer!!!!I divice the plant ,it makes very match offsets and i try this for a year in my greenhousse and outside in my bog,i have for moment 15 plants off this and i have not really do the trouble for cultivate this really.I am beginner in carnivores ,but i cultivate carnivores for 10 years now.My boggarden ,i make this 6 yaers ago ,so i know a little bit off cultivation off these.When make dionea ofsets?I think when it is adult ,i never see offsets to a young plant!or is this wrong?

Why must i take leaf s iff this make offsetting well?And indeed it was sold to me like sawtooth ,then its frozen ,and after this it came back in these vorm on a other place then where i set it,from seeds ?from offsets ? i don t know these,meaby not reasson for make a cultivar ??like i mention if i give a name then its mini sawtooth and this are still sawtooth,i think?Or not?

But i go not named this anyway ,like i say ,i think this is not intresting plant and i let where it is ,in my bog garden for good!And go enjoy it!Thanks for answhere anyway

For you all ,you not see this as special ,i become not a single positive comments on this ,so i let rest in peace as sawtooth!

Cheers Willy

Edited June 5, 2010 by will9

[mobile]

If the mutation is stable in different growing conditions, for different people, over a number of seasons then I can't really see how it can't be a cultivar. The reason I used 'Petite Dragon' as an example was because it was originally received as an offset of ‘Red Dragon’ from Peter D’Amato. Does this mean that the plant that Peter D’Amato had was not 'Red Dragon'?

[will9]

If the mutation is stable in different growing conditions, for different people, over a number of seasons then I can't really see how it can't be a cultivar. The reason I used 'Petite Dragon' as an example was because it was originally received as an offset of ‘Red Dragon’ from Peter D’Amato. Does this mean that the plant that Peter D’Amato had was not 'Red Dragon'?

This is the same like this ,you become your plant as red dragon ,it must stay red dragon for so far i have understud,you may not give a name in this case ,so i supoose petit dragon is not exist.

B52 is a cultivar because he is bigger then normal,i see yesterday a plant a few years old and looking smaller as a normall,meaby wrong cultivate condition?

If i see on fotofinder i see many different plant from one cultivar ,i think everybody can see this,must a cultivar not allways are tesame ?Normally there is only one clone ,how can these plants be so different?

Other cultivate conditions meaby ,or sales the wrong plants?

You see this by red dragon to ,different teeths different shape and different color ,i not no what i must think about these?

Cheers Willy

[Tha_Reaper]

plants from 1 clone can look different if you grow them under different conditions, or if the plants are not of the same age. a plant grown in full sun will look different than one grown in the shade. One grown in england looks different from one grown in marocco. One grown in the summer will look different from one grown in the fall. You get the picture?

[Celox]

New cultivar?

No.

[will9]

plants from 1 clone can look different if you grow them under different conditions, or if the plants are not of the same age. a plant grown in full sun will look different than one grown in the shade. One grown in england looks different from one grown in marocco. One grown in the summer will look different from one grown in the fall. You get the picture?

So what she say abbout stable in other grow conditions mains notting ,everybody say another thing about this!!! If there are difference in growing condition i know,but not so match that you not see anymore what it is ,then its never stable.it become more and more confused for me,a few more answhere like this and i not reading this anymore

celox you have possible riht ,how many names are there from dionea that are not a cultivar or may not have another Name?

When you can talk about a cultivar?You can not check this in different cultivate ,she all chance for sure iff i must believe all this talk ,talk.From offsets are not reasson ,mutation is not reasson,from seeds is possibly not reasson ,i think the only reasson is who ask this and iff the plant is intresting enouff ;

Plant whitout theets is more intresting ,nobody must know from where it came ,it become for sure a cultivar where ever he came,

I think on this way you can talk en talking till you are old and grey whitout knowing something ,all this reacties say notting exept that this plant is not a wanted one ,i think everybody is OK whit this .

In fact is this the only i want to know and i have no further comments on this ,thanks all.

Cheers Willy

[Tha_Reaper]

it is not like a sawtooth changes into a b52 when grown in another condition. the general outline stays the same, but the shape of the leaves, the size of the leaves and traps, the growing speed, and especially the color can vary between clones grown under different conditions. I dont know the exact rules for naming a cultivar, but at least you should try to find out if your plant doesnt start to grow all of a sudden under different conditions (send a plant that you got from division or a cutting to another (best more than 1) experienced grower(s) with another climate to test that for example). If it also stays that small for at least 2 years in other conditions, then i think you can try again to propose to register it as a cultivar... but again: i dont know those rules exactly.

If it stays this small in other conditions too, them i would be interested in a plant for sure... even it you cant register it as a cultivar, you can always tell people that you give a clone to that it is a small form of a sawtooth.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Tha_Reaper

[will9]

it is not like a sawtooth changes into a b52 when grown in another condition. the general outline stays the same, but the shape of the leaves, the size of the leaves and traps, the growing speed, and especially the color can vary between clones grown under different conditions. I dont know the exact rules for naming a cultivar, but at least you should try to find out if your plant doesnt start to grow all of a sudden under different conditions (send a plant that you got from division or a cutting to another (best more than 1) experienced grower(s) with another climate to test that for example). If it also stays that small for at least 2 years in other conditions, then i think you can try again to propose to register it as a cultivar... but again: i dont know those rules exactly.

Is this happend whit all these very spended plants ,how many eden black are send to different members all over the world you think??? or how many dracula ?

Sorry, but i have no longer intention for making a cultivar,and that a sawtooth not change in a B52 ,i know this ,think you i am a complete fool? Thanks very match for this!

Cultivar?The name say it by its self,something that is make in culture i supoose?

I have ask for the rules in another topic ,see eden black,but these are other rules what i hearing now ,so all very confused

Cheers Willy

Edited June 5, 2010 by will9

[Tha_Reaper]

then thats ok... and seriously... i'm through with your thinking that people that try to help and explain things are against you or something. patience and being able to take some critics and hints are virtues that you will really need....

[will9]

then thats ok... and seriously... i'm through with your thinking that people that try to help and explain things are against you or something. patience and being able to take some critics and hints are virtues that you will really need....

This are not carnivore ,but why some people think i have no patience?

Make this by myself ,it s 2,20 m long and made totally on scale 1:100,not a build packet only the plan,allmost a year work,it s another hobby off me,

It s not a question off patience ,it s a question of time that left for me!

the most members are between 12 and 30 years old,she have plenty off time and meaby plenty patience to, i feel very old whit my 56 years and realise me that i not have plenty off time left,not the time for cultivate all carnivores from seeds ,i did this 20years ago whit cacti.Most people i know above 70 can not do match anymore,the most are dead allready.So i supoose ,meaby 20 years left for me if i have lucky.

cheers Willy

Edited June 5, 2010 by will9

[DaveC]

Please people raed what i say

Willy,

I think you should try reading what everyone else has been saying!

Put as simply as possible, to get a cultivar you need a mummy plant and a daddy plant to make baby plants. If one of those baby plants looks different to it's mummy, daddy, brothers and sisters and remains this way then you may have a cultivar.

You cannot produce a cultivar by getting a named plant and treating it badly until it looks different.

Dave

[will9]

Willy,

I think you should try reading what everyone else has been saying!

Put as simply as possible, to get a cultivar you need a mummy plant and a daddy plant to make baby plants. If one of those baby plants looks different to it's mummy, daddy, brothers and sisters and remains this way then you may have a cultivar.

You cannot produce a cultivar by getting a named plant and treating it badly until it looks different.

Dave

Hi Dave totaly agree,but how many cultivars are there that nobody knows where she came from?Japanees growers are experts in this .you must not say what are the parents .It s from no matter where she came from ,i know some guy that cultivate plants in TC (haworthia )he have find some treatment that plants chanced a lot,color and shape.These plants are all sales for gastronomic sums,nobody want to know from where or how she are made ,it s only matter how the plants looks like! i mention many times in this topic .What to doo whit offsets that become yellow and green?Or whit monstruose or cristate forms?Cristate is most off the time becausse the plant is treat very bad! Is the plant intresting for the market or not ,thats the question ,and i think i have many times get answhere in this topic ,it s for sure not ,so i say it again for the fifht time ,i have no more intensions for make some cultivar of this.

No one is waiting for a plant like this, So

Cheers Willy

[mantrid]

This is the same like this ,you become your plant as red dragon ,it must stay red dragon for so far i have understud,you may not give a name in this case ,so i supoose petit dragon is not exist.

B52 is a cultivar because he is bigger then normal,i see yesterday a plant a few years old and looking smaller as a normall,meaby wrong cultivate condition?

If i see on fotofinder i see many different plant from one cultivar ,i think everybody can see this,must a cultivar not allways are tesame ?Normally there is only one clone ,how can these plants be so different?

Other cultivate conditions meaby ,or sales the wrong plants?

You see this by red dragon to ,different teeths different shape and different color ,i not no what i must think about these?

Cheers Willy

The only true cultivars are the officially registered cultivars. theres not many and for good reason, most of the named VFT are not significantly different enough or do not have stable characteristics. They are given names by people who get excited when they get or grow from seed a plant that looks a bit different (your average person wouldnt be able to tell it from a typicalVFT) or by people doing so AS a sales gimmic to shift some bog standard VFT.

Ive been caught out twice by being sold a plant called Red Line by a person on this site and also a reputable grower. Ive had the one of a reputable grower for a number of years now. Its a mature plant and is kept in direct sunlight outside in an open coldframe and has never developed red lines. Ironically I have bog standard VFTs that develop a red line in good light but I dont call it anything other than 'typical'.

There ought to be some rules even if they are just informal that growers of VFTs should follow before naming a VFT

Heres three to start

1. Must display traits for all of the growing season

2. Traits must be common to all traps/leaves developed during growing season (This would rule out things like funnel trap which are not natural mutations but the result of chemical induced polyploidy)

3. Traits must be stable for at least 3 years before naming

[will9]

Thank you very match ,at least one person that know what i will to tell

We talking here for make a registred cultivar,iff i place this foto whit the name Belgian mini sawtooth whitout any explane ,i give it a name allready then and i must say notting .There for i ask this ,i have not the intention to give a plant a name thats not earnt a name like so many growers do.I am totaly agree whit mantrid ,there are so many names but so lesser real cultivars that i not will make another one

Thanks mantrid for understand what i try to say i wunderer only ,there are some registred cultivars because she are bigger ,so why is there not one thats get smaller?

Is it becausse nobody have ask?

Cheers Willy

I do some homework for see how to make a cultivar:

Dionaea 'Fused Tooth'Comments: Registered 30. 12. 2004 (JS) "A tissue-cultured mutation isolated by Thomas Carow. The teeth are few and fused together by ‘webbing’." NOTE: Some Germans (.de sites) call ‘Fused Tooth’ by the name “Shark Teeth” or “Shark Tooth”. updated

Dionaea 'Green Dragon' (M.Erbacher & M.Stoeckl)

Comments: Registered 24. 11. 2005 {JS} [isolated about 1996 during the amplification of 'Akai Ryu']

Dionaea 'Korrigans' (G.Bily)

Comments: previously “Fused Petiole” similar to "typical", except the trap and petiole are not separate.

Dionaea 'Trichterfalle'

Comments: Stefen Lenssen in Germany wrote: “The plant comes from Dr. König/Germany who uses some phytohormones to create it. The leaves are grown together at the inner margins (cup trap at the outer margins)”. see http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2674

Edited June 5, 2010 by will9