south American Drosera species

[Daniel O.]

Hello,

a lot of my D. camporupestris are still flowering and that´s the reason i had to take new pictures.

Bye the chance i checked also some of my other plants.

D. montana var. schwackei ´Diamantina´

D. roraimae ´Kukenam´

for comparison D. roraimae ´Gran Sabana, red plants´ (old picture)

D. spec. Duida

the "tentacles" in the middle are without dew

for comparison this is the same plant (old picture), 4 months ago, i received it from Gert on the EEE. It has totally changed it´s looking.

D. chrysolepis (the plant is 20 cm high)

a group of D. camporupestris in flower

I hope you will enjoy them.

Best regards,

Dani

Edited February 25, 2008 by Daniel O.

[jimscott]

Tres jolie!

[Sockhom]

Fantastic Daniel.

That Drosera montana var. schwackei ´Diamantina´ is awesome.

I think i found myself a new addiction...

François.

[Iggy]

Hi Dani,

Another stunning topic from you!!!Healthy plants as always.

I really like the flowers of your D.camporupestris !!

The groupshot is fantastic, are they easy to get seeds?

My first flower will open tomorrow or the day after.

Thanks for sharing your pics!!

Iggy

[Fernando Rivadavia]

Hello Dani!

Beautiful plants!!! I think this is the 1st time I see a nice plant of D.m.schwackei in cultivation. It even has the nice yellowish color to it, slightly reddish in older leaves. Congratulations! And you sure got a lot of flowers out of those D.camporupestris, huh? And about this D.sp.Duida... hmmm, mysterious little plant. Could this be D.yutajensis??

Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia

[Daniel O.]

Hi all,

thanks for all the kind words.

D. montana var. schwackei is also one of my favourites (together with D.camporupestris ) from south America. It´s not getting red, but it´s really nice.

François, once started and it will not end.

Iggy, good luck with your D. camporupestris, but it´s absolutely no problem to get several seed from this species.

Fernando, thanks, about 20 plants are flowering in the moment.

About the D. spec. Duida (mysterious little plant), it´s not very small, in diameter it´s about 3,5-4cm. As i mentioned already this plant was from Gert, but it has not flowered yet.

The tentacles near to the middle of the rosette (near to the growing point) for me are very anusual. I can take a more detailed picture from the centre of the plant, if it helps.

Best regards,

Dani

[jp]

hi Daniel

Your plants are fantastics, I'm mad of the

D. montana var. schwackei ´Diamantina´ and D.sp Duida

Thanks a lot for sharing!!

by.

jp

[maxposwillo]

Great Plants! I like the D. montana var. schwackei ´Diamantina´!

[Carlos Rohrbacher]

Hi Daniel,

I loved these plants. Thanks for sharing

Regards.

Carlos.

[Lolo]

Hi,

Daniel, your plants are simply splendid, you know how I am fan of it!

I would make everything to reach this level of beauty, I really love these plants.

Have you a whole picture of D.chrysolepis ? I lost mine during the terrible heat wave in august 2003, during this time I did not cultivate my south Americans Drosera in the cellar (more cool...).

Thanks!

Lolo

[Fernando Rivadavia]

Hello Dani,

You're right, those tentacles at the leaf base are incredibly long! It almost seems like they are protecting the young leaves...

Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia

[Daniel O.]

Hello,

thanks to all of you for the kind words.

jp, i can understand you. I will contact you tomorrow.

Lolo, when the ventilation is good enough they have no real problems with high temperatures. Last summer it was not a real summer, very bad weather during the whole summer. But the years ago they had temperatures above 35 degree and it has not really suffered. My summer temperatures are always very high because of the small room and the tubes.

Here is a picture from the hole plant. It´s not very sharp because of the 3d-effect and the size of the plant. In diameter it´s 11cm and 20cm high.

Fernando, yes, it really looks like the long tentacles are protecting the young developing leafes. Something like this i have not seen till yet.

Are there any species that behave the same way?

Andreas mentioned a few months ago that he started to think that this plant seems not to be D. yutajensis, in his opinion it could be a natural hybrid between D. roraimae and D. hirticalyx.

He also said that his plant is sterile. Till now i cannot confirm this because my big plant has not flowered yet, but i hope it will flower soon because it seems to be mature.

I think you have been on some of the Tepui´s, so , have you perhaps seen these plants growing on Cerro Duida? As i mentioned before they are from Gert. Has he been with you there and has he collected seed or is it from somebody else? But if it´s sterile, how could he collected seed from these plants?

So, perhaps it´s really a true species.

Here is a more detailed picture from the centre of the plant, perhaps it helps. Bye the way, the leafes are very thick. So thick leafes i have never seen before by any other Drosera species.

Best regards,

Dani

Edited February 27, 2008 by Daniel O.

[Fernando Rivadavia]

Hello Dani,

I discussed this plant with Andreas F. a few months back and I remember he told me it aas Joachim Nertz or Andreas Wistuba who collected it on Duida. I've been to Duida twice with Gert and we did not see this plant. We saw D.roraimae on the S side of Duida, D.esmeraldae & D.arenicola on the N side, and D.hirticalyx on nearby Cerro Marahuaka. We did not see hybrids between any of these and your plant looks more like the D.hirticalyx form found in that area. See below a few pics of D.hirticalyx on Marahuaka.

One of the habitats where D.hirticalyx grew with a giant pink-flowered form of D.roraimae:

Here you can see both species together on a little island:

Here's a nice group of D.hirticalyx:

The name hirticalyx means "hairy sepals":

The local form of D.hirticalyx often formed huge coluns of dead leaves:

And here's the best picture I have showing the center of the rosette. Unfortunately it's not too clear, but the same long tentacles appear to be present at the base of the leaves. And the leaves are very thick too:

I don't remember what it was though, but Andreas mentioned there was something different between my D.hirticalyx from Duida and the so-called D.sp.Duida. I think it has to do with the flower scape hairyness.

Best Wishes,

Fernando Rivadavia

Edited February 27, 2008 by Fernando Rivadavia

[Greg Allan]

Hi Daniel,

Exceptional plants. What exactly are your conditions? I have tried and failed to grow South American Drosera more times than I care to mention. I simply cannot get terrarium conditions right for these species(although my Heliamphora grow very well in a terrarium). Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Greg

[Sockhom]

Hello Daniel !

You mentioned ventilation for your Drosera. What kind of ventilation did you exactly set? Is it just an opened window in the room or did you set some fans?

Thanks for your time.

Fernando, those are outstanding habitat shots!

François.

Edited February 27, 2008 by Sockhom

[Lolo]

Hi!

Thanks for the whole plant Daniel ! Huge D.chrysolepis !! (Oohh, there is a small one near the big )

Which kind of substrate do you use for south american species ? sand / sphagnum peat moss (50/50) ?

Few weeks ago Gert sold D.duida...I missed the offer

Fernando, each time your pictures of plants in habitat are gorgeous, thanks for sharing.

Lolo

[le petit]

I really like D. chrysolepis

Fernando, your photografies of D.hirticalyx are very nice!!!

[Daniel O.]

Thanks again to all of you,

Greg, none of my Drosera is growing in a terrarium (exept the Petiolaris-Drosera of course). They are grown indoor with artificial light.

They can cope with lower humidity than expected. For example i´m growing a few D. roraimae in my highland terrarium and they don´t grow better than the other plants. Good light is very important. I use the tray method, 1-2cm all the year.

During summer sometimes they have to cope with very high temperatures, daytime about 35 degree, but it´s absolutely no problem when they are not growing in a closed terrarium. The substrate i´m using is always nearly the same, 2:1- 3:1 peat/sand.

More information you can get here:

a part of my setup

There you can find more information about the light and other things.

I hope that these points will help you for a next try.

François, no fans at all, only open windows the hole day and night. In the room next to the growing room where my highland terrarium is standing also one of the windows is slightly open so there is draught. That´s enough, but it can be really hot there.

Lolo, it´s really a very huge and old plant , but i´m really sorry that i have to disappoint you, the small plant near to the big one is in fact a D. camporupestris, some seed has fallen into this pot. My only smaller one is not visible on this picture.

The substrate i mentioned already above, i would say 2:1.

Yes, it was from Gert, but it looked totally different when i got it, it was totally green.

Fernando, your pictures from Cerro Marahuaka are really fantastic. :yes:Thanks a lot.

So in this case Gert must have the seed from Joachim or Andreas W..

That you have not found any hybrids between the plants on Cerro Marahuaka could mean that this plant is perhaps really a true species.

Is the first picture taken at the edge of Cerro Marahuaka, because another Tepui is visible in the background?

Also the islands are very cute.

Some of the plants must be very old because of their really huge stems, very nice plants.

On your last picture the same long tentacles really appear to be present at the base of the leaves.

The "sepals" picture is very interesting and important for me. Probably it will be the only way to find out if it´s perhaps a real D. hirticalyx or anything else.

What Andreas told you, has it perhaps something to do with the hairy sepals or only with the flower stalk hairyness, because on your picture the flower stalk seems not to be hairy, only the sepals. Also Andreas mentioned in the german forum that the seed from his D. spec. Duida seems to be sterile. That would be a very big difference and than it could mean that his plant and probably my plant would be a hybrid, but otherwise you mentioned that you don´t have seen any hybrids between the plants.

So, after all it probably seems that i have to wait for a flower.

Thanks for your time and the great pictures.

Best regards,

Dani

Edited February 28, 2008 by Daniel O.

[Fernando Rivadavia]

Hello Dani,

If it is a true species, it is definitely very close to D.hirticalyx. I would expect hybrids to be intermediate, and not ALMOST exactly like one of the parents. So I do not think it is a hybrid. That the seeds are sterile in cultivation may just be some problem with pollinization. I think Andreas said that the sepals were not hairy as they should be, that was all. I would imagine those tall stems in the picture were truly very old plants. And yes we were at the southeastern edge of Marahuaka, but what you see in the background was still part of Marahuaka. We were on the opposite side of a U-shaped valley.

Best wishes, Fernando Rivadavia

[Daniel O.]

Hello Fernando,

thanks again very much for your explanations and the very nice pictures from the plants and the habitat on Marahuaka.

When it´s going to flower i´ll take some pictures, so we can discuss it again.

Best regards,

Dani

[Andreas Fleischmann]

Hello,

I cannot explain why I missed this interesting thread until now .

Daniel, very nice photographs of very healthy plants! Well done!

Thus, here's my 2 cents on the Drosera sp. 'Cerro Duida':

The plant was collected by Joachim Nerz several years ago, he collected seeds and raised the plants in vitro. Gert seems to have his plants originating from Joachim. Joachim told me that this "D. sp. 'Duida'" was not growing on the summit area of Cerro Duida, but on the slopes at a low elevated area on the back of Duida. (I wanted to know where exactly the population occurs, as I would love to see this plant in the wild some day. I rember Joe saying: "Ei, des is fei schwierig, da musch oimal um de ganze Teppui rum, weil des Pflänzle wächst undde auf da ganz de andre Saidde!" )

The plant itself seems to be sterile, none of my 5 plants I got from Joachim's tissue culture clones did ever set seed! It produces pollen, however few, but the pollen looks viable under a microscope. However, I did not start pollen growth experiments, if it's able to form pollen tubes for example. Even flowers which I have cross-pollinated by hand didn't ever set viable seed. The ripe capsules only formed tiny aborted seed grains, which did not germinate.

Thus, why is this plant sterile? It could either be a sterile natural hybrid, and Joachim collected the hybrid seed on a fertile mother plant by chance. Or it could be a fertile plant (hybrid or species), which turned into a sterile clone by in vitro tissue culture treatment. There are some studies on other plant species showing that intensive treatment with growth promotors and plant hormones can lead to development of sterile flowers.

The plant looks very similar to D. hirticalyx vegetatively, I agree. (Both D. hirticalyx and the D. sp. 'Duida' have those exceptionally large glands on the base of the lamina, by the way . These long tentacles are not uncommon in several Drosera species, D. roraimae has them, too. However, they are usually overlooked in species that have long petioles, and I agree that they are even more conspicuous in species with short petioles, when they are covering the centre of the rosette). Both plants are forming tall columns of dead leaves with age.

But their flowers and scapes are quite different:

Scapes of D. hirticalyx are thick and robust, but rather short (according to the type description, the scape is 4-15 cm in length), bearing few flowers (1-6, according to the protologue). The pedicels of D. hirticalyx are very short, sometimes the flowers appear to be almost sessile on the scape. And the calyx bears those large, dark glands. The stigmas are slightly knob-shaped.

In these characters, the D. sp. 'Duida' differs: scapes are long and slender (in some of my plants, the scapes where exceeding 50cm in length!) and they bear a lot of flowers (at least 20 in my greenhouse grown plants). The flowers are much smaller than in D. hirticalyx, however the styles are longer in relation to the flower size. The stigmas are more acute (like in D. roraimae). The pedicels are well developed, and longer than in D. hirticalyx. The scape is covered with short-stalked glands, peduncle, pedicels and sepals are densely covered with small glands (much smaller than the large glands of D. hirticalyx).

I hope that these photographs can illustrate what I poorly tried to explain above:

(Thanks to Chrisitan Dietz for kindly hosting my photos on his website again!!)

Note the short pedicels and the hairy sepals!

Petals are about 6 mm long and spatulate, stimas are knob-like.

And now for the strange D. sp. "Cerro Duida":

You can estimate that it's at least more than 6 flowers on this developing scape. Note the longer pedicels and the indumentum of short glands that covers the whole inflorescence.

Petals are about 3 mm in length and broadly cuneate to obovate. Stigmas are thin and narrow.

A long thin scape with lots of flowers, these characters match well the description of D. yutajensis. This is the reason why I did first identify this plant from Duida as "D. yutajensis". D. yutajensis was described to have leaves that are densely pubenscent on the lower surface (like in D. villosa or D. ascendens!). I have just had a closer look at my plants of D. sp. 'Duida', and this is the case in this one, too. Hhmm, if it just would produce seed! (Seed is described and illustrated for D. yutajensis, thus I would exclude that D. yutajensis in fact could be a sterile hybrid ). I will have to see this plant in the wild sooner or later .

BTW, in some publications you will find a note that D. yutajensis has pink flowers. This is not stated in the original publication, nor on the herbarium specimens. It just results from lazy botanists working on South American Drosera (Fernando's special girl friends, hahaha), who usually cite the flower colour of a certain species to be "pink or white". A good guess for South American Drosera, if you don't know the colour excatly, hahaha!

All the best,

Andreas

Edited March 2, 2008 by Andreas Fleischmann

[Fernando Rivadavia]

Hello Andreas!!

I'm so glad you joined us! :) Thanks for all the details and great pics to illustrate your points!

So regarding the possible hybrid status of this plant... I think it's very unlikely for anyone to accidentally collect Drosera hybrid seed in the wild from one of the cross-fertilized parents (since the "hybrid" is sterile, the seed would have to come from one of the parent plants). Furthermore, it would be an enormous coincidence that ALL the seed turned out to be of the hybrid, and none of the parent species. Last of all, if it is a hybrid, what could it possibly be a hybrid with???

Therefore, I am convinced that either something happened to make the plants sterile in vitro (more likely), or else something is going wrong in cultivation which is keeping them from being fertilized (less likely).

The leaf rosette of D.sp Duida is apparently indistinguishable from that of D.hirticalyx, except for the hairy leaf undersurface, right Andreas? The real difference is in the inflorescence, which in D.sp.Duida is closer to D.roraimae (flower number, shape & size, scape thickness, height & pubescence, etc.), correct?

It seems to me that D.sp.Duida is extremely similar to D.hirticalyx. It could be considered a subspecies of D.hirticalyx even. If it is conspecific with D.yutajensis, then D.yutajensis is only close to D.hirticalyx but shows a possible evolutionary link to D.roraimae too.

(Before going on, I will just say that I discard the possibility of D.sp.Duida being a D.roraimae X D.hirticalyx hybrid, because a hybrid plant would be more or less intermediate in all its characters, and NOT have the rosette of one parent and the inflorescence of the other parents...)

BTW, in some publications you will find a note that D. yutajensis has pink flowers. This is not stated in the original publication, nor on the herbarium specimens. It just results from lazy botanists working on South American Drosera (Fernando's special girl friends, hahaha), who usually cite the flower colour of a certain species to be "pink or white". A good guess for South American Drosera, if you don't know the colour excatly, hahaha!

No comments except that Mireya & Tania must be potheads, to say the least...

In conclusion: ARE THERE ANY CHARACTERS IN D.SP.DUIDA WHICH DO NOT MATCH D.YUTAJENSIS???

I do not have my literature with me here in SF yet, unfortunately, but it seems to me that this is in fact D.yutajensis!

I rember Joe saying: "Ei, des is fei schwierig, da musch oimal um de ganze Teppui rum, weil des Pflänzle wächst undde auf da ganz de andre Saidde!"

Oh, I couldn't agree more! Or maybe not?

Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia

P.S. In the short time that it took me to write this, I can no longer see your pics above Andreas...

[Andreas Fleischmann]

Hello,

>Last of all, if it is a hybrid, what could it possibly be a hybrid with???

The following species are recorded from Duida: D. hirticalyx, D. roraimae, D. arenicola. I agree that I cannot imagine any intermediate of them to look like that hirticalyx-like D. sp. 'Duida'.

>Therefore, I am convinced that either something happened to make the plants sterile in vitro (more likely), or else >something is going wrong in cultivation which is keeping them from being fertilized (less likely).

Dito. ;)

>The leaf rosette of D.sp Duida is apparently indistinguishable from that of D.hirticalyx, except for the hairy leaf >undersurface, right Andreas?

Yep.

>The real difference is in the inflorescence, which in D.sp.Duida is closer to D.roraimae (flower number, shape & >size, scape thickness, height & pubescence, etc.), correct?

Yes. (except for the fact that in some populations of D. roraimae, the scape is glabrous, but that's something different ;)).

>(Before going on, I will just say that I discard the possibility of D.sp.Duida being a D.roraimae X D.hirticalyx >hybrid, because a hybrid plant would be more or less intermediate in all its characters, and NOT have the rosette >of one parent and the inflorescence of the other parents...)

I do fully agree with you in this point.

>In conclusion: ARE THERE ANY CHARACTERS IN D.SP.DUIDA WHICH DO NOT MATCH D.YUTAJENSIS???

I have just compared the D. sp. 'Duida' with Duno's description of D. yutajensis. Except the seeds, which are apparently not available, everything matches well: Leaf shape and size, indumentum, stipules, floral characters (which are poorly described and illustrated in the protologue). D. yutajensis is seperated from D. hirticalyx by leaf hairiness, floral characters and seed shape. In my opinion, there are species which have been seperated by fewer characters. ;) Thus I do not believe that D. yutajensis (aka D. sp. 'Duida' ;)) is conspecific with D. hirticalyx. I'll send you the description of D. yutajensis and D. hirticalyx (which luckily is the same publication), thus you can compare, too.

Southpark commercial break is over, thus I quit here ...

...All the best,

Andreas

[Fernando Rivadavia]

Hello Andreas,

Well, it sounds like we can safely claim that D.sp.Duida is thus in fact conspecific with D.yutajensis! I guess it's time for everyone to change the names on their growlists...

All the best,

Fernando Rivadavia

[Daniel O.]

Hello Fernando, hello Andreas,

thanks for your interesting talk here, i enjoyed (and surely not only me) it very much.

Thanks also for the pictures, in fact of them the differences in the flowers are really good visible.

Have i understood it correctely that both of you would tend to the result that D. spec. Duida is closer to D. yutajensis and not to D. hirticalyx, and that the only difference between both is the not available seed from the D. spec. Duida.

So we are again at the point that we have to hope for seed.

Is it perhaps possible to clear it via genetic information?

I guess it's time for everyone to change the names on their growlists...

Do you really suggest this?

Best regards,

Dani

Edited March 4, 2008 by Daniel O.