Sockhom Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 (edited) Hello friends, I'm writing from Vietnam. I just spent the last 3 days with Charles Clarke looking after the true Nepenthes thorelii after some pictures appeared on the forum in last november: http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=34599 We only had a rough idea of the plants location as the Vietnamese kids who found the plants refused to help me to locate and study them. I would soon know why they refused. After 2 days of investigation, Charles and I managed to find the exact location that the Vietnamese kids showed on their (deleted) pictures (Can I post them again?). A wonderful swamp with a big population of Nepenthes mirabilis and Drosera and Utricularia everywhere. I never saw such a magnificent population of crimson Drosera indica before. This must have been the place. After a few hours of research, Charles talked to the only familly of villagers who lived near this swamp and they told that a few months ago, some Vietnamese from HoChiMinh came and dug all the plants.... That's why we found nothing. They might be some seedlings left but we didn't saw them. I have to say that I feel angry at the moment and quite sad. These things happen - charles did make the analogy with Nepenthes aristolochioides. So is N. thorelii extinct? I don't think so. It must grow in another swamp but as the sprecies grow near human lowland habitations, it will be very difficult to find a place that hasn't been turned into a paddy field in the last century Tomorrow, Charles and I will visit one of the type locations. Wish us good luck. Francois. Edited February 11, 2010 by Sockhom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Cornish Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 Wishing you they best Francois. I'm sure if anyone can find them it'll be you and Charles. Really hope you succeed in your quest as I know how much it means to you and other Nepaholics around the globe. Regards Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsivertsen Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 Best of luck to both of you, sad to see such wholsale poaching like this, and hard to believe that this might be the only site left where this species existed, but not unusual in this genus. - Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel O. Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Hi Francois, i´m really sad to hear about the loss of the plants, hopefully some seedlings will have survived. And of course i wish you all the best to find other locations, good luck. Best regards, Dani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFS Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Can't honestly say I'm surprised reading this, given the original content of the linked post, though it's devastating, especially because N. thorelii is potentially extinct or close to extinction. It must be pretty devastating travelling all the way to Viet Nam only to find this has happened. In the most polite way possible I'd like to ask if some of you guys who wrote to the linked post (and a related one about CP seed) are still of the opinion that as a forum and CP growing community we should not denounce this sort of stuff in the strongest possible terms when it crops up, and by that I mean when a person posts pictures containing shovels and grubby hands. I made a point previously that digging plants with a profit motive often spells disaster, and this post only seems to highlight this in a pretty tragic way. Miguel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vraev Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) Best of luck Francois. I hope you can find another location nearby. I know you were really excited and hoping to find this species in-situ man. Truly such a terrible outcome.... on one hand...those people were privileged to rediscover this species...but then their selfish and ignorant actions show how this privilege can be mis-used. Truly a sad sad event. Taking out one or two plants..even though unacceptable for us...might be replacable in time...but selectively wiping all of them out... its a new low to what humans are capable of. Not that this is the first time it has happened or the last time it will happen...but a true reality check on human morality and his opinion on the world around us. Edited February 12, 2010 by vraev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Sad to hear about the Neps, but... can we see pics of the Drosera & Utrics???? :) Good luck, Fernando Rivadavia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrAlmond Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Sad to hear about the Neps, but... can we see pics of the Drosera & Utrics???? :) Oh yeah...I was asking the same... ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sockhom Posted February 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) Hello, I have checked, with Charles Clarke, some of the type locations today. There is nothing left as far as we could see but plantations, paddy fields, heveas and houses everywhere. If the species still grows there -very unlikely- it must be in a handful of square meters that will be one day or another wiped out by humans activities. I have a few locations to check (alone this time, Charles had to go). Let's hope. Cheers, Francois. PS: Fernando, hey man, I' m still grieving! ;-) Seriously, I will try to post some pics as soon as possible. Those Drosera indica were awesome. Some stems were 50 cm high! Edited February 12, 2010 by Sockhom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sockhom Posted February 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 Hi, Thanks for the support guys. Today, I met one of the poachers... Don't ask me how I managed to restrain myself... All the thorelii were sold, probably in Thailand as there is no real CP market here and most of the plants come from Thailand or from... the wild. I did see the hybrid between mirabilis and thorelii like the one which appeared on the deleted pictures. The poacher refused kindly to give me any infos about any other thorelii location pretending he didn't know. Exactly what the other poacher said (and the one we could see with the unrooted plant and the shovel ::)). I' m not even mad at these guys. They just have not a single clue about what conservation is. They started a collection of bizarre plants and learned by internet (MY big mistake) that it was a valuable plant. So, they tried to get some monopoly. Each time I tried to explain conservation issues, a cheeky smile appeared on the face of the poacher as if I was saying a big joke. They're just kids. I hope they can grow up. Like Charles Clarke told me before he returned to KL, we need at least one generation before hobbyists realize the whole situation. Now, they're just bullies or selfish kids. Whatever. I did meet one young 15 years old grower called Tran Minh (a member of this forum) who is really aware - a very nice teenager- and who tries to spread the good word. But no one listen to him. Tran, you just have to keep on. This was my last day in Vietnam. A failure. I spent the whole day in one of the type location where I extensively searched for some swamps but almost everything has been turned to rubber plantations more than 30 years ago. People remembered the plants though. Like I already said, N. thorelii might grow somewhere else in some 10 square meters but I just can't afford time and money to do a random search. I will return there only if I have help from the Vietnamese hobbyists. Until, then I will focuse all my efforts on Cambodia where I have full supports fron friends, biologists and NGO who will even grant me some funds for the following years. I will post some pictures of the thorelii locations quite soon. Tomorrow, I will return for one week in Cambodia where I will visit a few new locations and doing some work at the herbarium of Phnom Penh. I' ll keep you updated. Cheers, Francois. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsivertsen Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 What a sad and tragic ending to this saga. The plants could end up anywhere, and the Thailand story could just be a ruse, a decoy to divert attention, but can't be ruled out either as there are lots of nurseries that market Nepenthes; but in this small CP community, with internet forums, email and all, they will eventually be found out. Good to know that 'cello might be able to intercept any illegal plants entering the markets in Thailand. Too bad these poachers were so short sighted and narrow minded, they probably don't realize that they could have made even MORE money if they did things within the law and conservation, plus they could have been the heroes of the Nepenthes world, and farmed these plants as crops, harvesting seed, and having a continuous supply and income, instead of a quick kill and the shame and disgrace of being world known for poaching every last plant right out of existence in its natural habitat. What a shame. Let's hope TranMinh finds another site in his country some day. - Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Green Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 Yes, a very sad story indeed - words fail me. Your effoerts are very much appreciated Francois Tran Minh - it is very pleasing to hear you are trying to get things done correctly Maybe you could continue to try to locate some of these plants. Either wild locations or the original poached plants. If responsible growers like yourself could get hold of them, then maybe Francois or Marcello could arrange to get cuttings and their future survival could be guaranteed. It would be a real shame if this story was to be the end of Vietnams most famous (now infamous) Nep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 This may sound crazy, but I'm dead serious: if you haven't already, you should try using Google Earth to find N.thorelii! Depending on the resolution that Google Earth has of the region where you are searching for the last remnants of these bogs, it can be very easy to distinguish cultivated areas versus undisturbed spots. Or open spots (swamps) versus forested areas. Believe it or not I have successfully used this software several times to find CP habitats in Brazil. Once you find an interesting spot, you can save the exact latitude & longitude to a hand-held GPS, which you will use in the field to find the place. I even save nearby reference points like forks in roads/trails which will help me get to the desired spot. This is how I discovered D.amazonica, for example. For many years I only had frustratingly vague information from herbarium specimens. One day I met Alberto Vincentini (who eventually became co-author of the species) who knew the area well and helped narrow my search down to a small region of the Rio Cuieiras, a tributary of the Rio Negro. I mapped the whole area out on Google Earth, saved reference points to my GPS, and then printed out a few images of the maps. Once in Manaus, I hired a boat and personally guided the boatman along every curve and fork of the rivers winding through the Amazon rainforest and leading us to the general area where the plants grew. Once there, I was fortunate to find a local who lived on the riverside and who knew there was a natural clearing a few meters inland from the riverside at one spot, which I would've never guessed since it was hidden behind a wall of tall trees - and because there was a cloud over that exact spot in the Google Earth image. Good luck! Fernando Rivadavia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 BTW, could you post the deleted pictures on here again??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcello catalano Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 Hi Fernando! :) Actually, that's what we do at least since 2004, when the Indochina adventure started :) I'm surprised to hear that as if it was an original idea, but maybe it's because other carnivores are relatively more esy to find. With the Nepenthes of Indochina you're actually like Indiana Jones looking for the Holy Grail... You speak Italian, I'm sure you'll enjoy my italian book about Thailand, where I explain my adventures and what it takes to find these plants in the wild... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 (edited) Ciao Marcelo, Other CPs easier to find?? Neps are huge in comparison to Drosera, Genlisea, Pings & Utrics, you can see them from much further away, hahaha! Best wishes, Fernando P.S. Will you be selling your book at Leiden in August? :) Edited February 13, 2010 by Fernando Rivadavia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcello catalano Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 Naaa, it's just for the italian market, even if I expect some orders from foreign Countries too... In the unlikely event that some of my friends of the usual Italian group go to Leiden by car, I might give them a few copies to bring and sell through the local cp society stand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Tonnerre Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 Too bad you didnt succeed with N.thorelii Francois, but at least you tried! I still hope for a happy end. This may sound crazy, but I'm dead serious: if you haven't already, you should try using Google Earth to find N.thorelii! I second that. Google Earth really is a blessing when it comes to finding Locations, it makes things so much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Green Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 and NGO who will even grant me some funds for the following years. That at least is wonderful news Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sockhom Posted February 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 Hello, I'm back in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. A last week of research. I hope it will be more positive than the previous week spent in neighbouring Vietnam. Because I really want the CP community to know more about about this peculiar species, I will, roughly, explain the "thoreliigate'': 1/ Nepenthes of Indochina have been studied between 1896 and 1909. Then nothing for almost one century. 2/ Most of the plants coming from this part of the world into private collections have been labelled as "N. thorelii'', without serious researches being undertaken. Many people realize that all these thorelii plants are variable though quite similar. Between 2004 and 2009, Marcello Catalano, Martin Cheek then myself start working on this group of plants. Conclusion is made that plants in cultivation do not fit the type description ad than the type locations haven't been visited since the first collections and the decription of the species. Some of us hope to find again this ghost plant one day. Almost every location where it has been collected had been turned into plantations or heavily wounded by war (agent orange, napalm, B52's)". At one point, I even thought that the pecies might be extinct. At this time, we didn't know how the species really look like. 3/ In 2007, I uncover new specimens in Paris herbarium. Adding that to the tyes of the species, I now have a clear idea of how the species looks. 4/ In november 2009, some Vietnamese growers post photos of a strange Nepenthes from Vietnam. I immediately recognize N. thorelii and exppress the wish to make sure that it is really N. thorelii and to study the population in the field. 5/ Quickly,these photos generates a lively discussion. Some of them show a Vietnamese with a shovel hand and dirty hands holding an uprooted plant. 6/ I managed to get a roughly indication of the plants whereabouts. Charles Clarke, Well known expert, even wishes to join me. Very nice. 7/ The discussion turns into a real scandal. The Vietnamese decide to withdraw and delete their pictures. They refuse to help me further. 8/ February 2010: I'm in Vietnam with Charles Clarke. After a few days of research, we uncover the locality: a swamp. After a few hours of pointless investigations, we find out that " some Vietnamese kids from Ho-Chi-Minh city came a few months ago and dug all the red plants". 9/ With Charles, we visit many localities, including the type locations (visited 150 to 100 years ago) but we're not successful. Eveything has been turned into plantations or habitations. 10/ Officially, this species is not in cultivation (although many growers persist in labelling some of the plans as N. thorelii). Recently, N. htorelii was one of the few species, with the elusive N. junguhnii (the spelling is not good ;-)) and N. mollis, which weren't pictures in Stewart McPherson monography. The species is not in culture and the only know location has been destroyed. You will find below the infamous pictures and some pictures of the Paris specimens. Nepenthes thorelii is the emblematic Nepenhes from Indchina and at the same time the least known of all. It might also be the most beautiful. I thik that many growers would fall in love with those ovoid lower pitchers and the same could be said about these upper pitchers, which look like some elongated N. aristolochioides upper pitchers. From a conservation point of view, it t's disaster. From the pont of view of the botanist and the taxonomist, it's really bad news. Finding N. thorelii might have helped to elaborate a long awaited key to the Indochinese species. I still have hope to find the species but I won't return to Vietnam without the suppport of the very small Vietnamese growers community (middle class kids). But, now, almost all of them seem completely unable to understand the issues of conservation and biodiveristy. Francois. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 Merci François for posting the pics and for summarizing the saga. Very sad... Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFS Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 I can see by the herbarium specimens why you were excited when you first saw those pictures, Francois. I didn't have the whole picture and I apologise for criticising you for being excited enough to gloss over the less tasteful issues. I hope there are plants still left out there, and I wish you luck finding them next time! Miguel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hvophuong Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 (edited) Dear Mr./Ms. Admin, Pls remove all pics which is mine. it's violation critical in my private i'm waiting yr support thks for assist hvophuong Fyr : Hi if you want your pictures removed remember to go and ask here http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?s...=35477&st=0 http://forum.petpitcher.com/showthread.php?t=3809&page=5 Edited February 17, 2010 by hvophuong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manders Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 At least now you can say your famous, theres always an upside if you look hard enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hvophuong Posted February 18, 2010 Report Share Posted February 18, 2010 (edited) Dear sb who can help, Pls kindly assist. reminder. it's violation critical in my private I'm owner them. they were stolen fr me which post public to distort facts aim plz plz and plz ------- Dear Mr./Ms. Admin,Pls remove all pics which is mine. it's violation critical in my private i'm waiting yr support thks for assist hvophuong Fyr : Hi if you want your pictures removed remember to go and ask here http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?s...=35477&st=0 http://forum.petpitcher.com/showthread.php?t=3809&page=5 Edited February 18, 2010 by hvophuong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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