Nepenthes thorelii paper

[Delwin]

James, Nepenthes are male and female, as you probably know, so having one plant in cultivation doesn't mean much to protect it against extinction :)

What we really hope is to find it again in the wild. I really don't believe in the government of Vietnam protecting a rural area from the poachers who want to dig out Nepenthes thorelii, doesn't sound realistic. But getting seeds to create new colonies in new hidden areas might be the solution.

Delwin, not to be out of topic, but what do you mean with "perlite doesn't work because the climate is too humid"? That's not supposed to be a problem with perlite... And if it is, it should be even worse with organic materials like the ones you're using...

Yap, different folk different method. As you know, one method doesnt work for all. I am just not good at perlite. With other type of media, i had very good success.

You seem to really understand the gov of Vietnam very well:) My mother-in-law have 2 hectares of land, of part of it was given to me as she know i love plants. The area which given to me is wild, out of development. With a small stream running beside it. My mother in law told me that this place used to grow neps. So if any neps was found, this will be the place where their seeds will sowed. But if the area of the adult plants is under treaten because of development, then they will be relocated here. By all mean, we are trying to find it before anyone who is a mechent or any link with a plants mechent. So that the plant can be give out, exchange or sell it at a very low amount to cover the postage. This way will make the plant valueless and not able to control one sex to domain the market. For i alone cannot do all this, so i really need the uni students to go search it.

[Delwin]

I guess it still has to be confirmed that this Nep in Singapore is the true thorelii - even if it is one of the plants that were dug up in Vietnam last year - since nobody was able to examine them and compare them to the herbarium specimen to give a positive ID. So I guess we still have to wait and see? Or is there new information on this?

As you most probebly never seen the pic posted of those neps being pouched. The ID had aready proven privately. And most certain the plant we will try the best not to let in flow in to taiwan or japan, cos it will creat a market by some of the ppls there. If possible, the plant will circle the world before reaching these 2 place thus make it worthless to money makers and precious to real collectors.

[Delwin]

I see. It is good that it has not completely died out anyway.

No, there are chances that we will find it again hiden in the deep jungle, finger cross. But to hold on to just only one plant one sex is really a risk, so we need to do cuttings in order it to carry on. This need those local pros to take care of it until there is enough to sent it to other neps collectors.

[marcello catalano]

Delwin, if you want some plants of N. thorelii to grow in full soil in your piece of land, please make 100% sure that no other species are growing in the same area!! You said that Nepenthes were growing there a long time ago. If one of those plants survived, and if it's N. kampotiana or N. mirabilis, we risk to hybrid the only thorelii we have with other species. Be careful and explore very well the whole place.

[James O'Neill]

The very unfortunate thing is that the deep jungle is becoming rarer and rarer.

[Delwin]

Delwin, if you want some plants of N. thorelii to grow in full soil in your piece of land, please make 100% sure that no other species are growing in the same area!! You said that Nepenthes were growing there a long time ago. If one of those plants survived, and if it's N. kampotiana or N. mirabilis, we risk to hybrid the only thorelii we have with other species. Be careful and explore very well the whole place.

Dont worry abt that, i had combed the area alot of time looking for Utrics:) I know this is serious we dont want to take chances. I am more worried abt other ppls such as those ppls who dug out the thorelli or merchents. People dont know that plant dug out in the wild is very hard to live.

[Delwin]

The very unfortunate thing is that the deep jungle is becoming rarer and rarer.

You are right and wrong. Yap forest are getting smaller worldwide. But some of the jungle in Vietnam are still pepper will bombs, so not much people dare to venture in. Unless the gov want the place then they will be at risk:P Now in Vietnam, it is developing very fast, that is the main problem.

[Delwin]

I think we are overboard, we should stop discuessing the thorelii things in here as this is Sockhom, sorry Sockhom.

[Milos Sula]

As you most probebly never seen the pic posted of those neps being pouched. The ID had aready proven privately. And most certain the plant we will try the best not to let in flow in to taiwan or japan, cos it will creat a market by some of the ppls there. If possible, the plant will circle the world before reaching these 2 place thus make it worthless to money makers and precious to real collectors.

Detail of the poached plant trap. It is not whole plant, but i think it is true N.thorelii:

[marcello catalano]

Milossula, who told you this is one of the poached thorelii plants?

This picture was posted on the petpitcher forum, the plant is glabrous, so it's N. kampotiana. N. thorelii is supposed to be a hairy plant.

Edited August 19, 2010 by marcello catalano

[Delwin]

Milossula, who told you this is one of the poached thorelii plants?

This picture was posted on the petpitcher forum, the plant is glabrous, so it's N. kampotiana. N. thorelii is supposed to be a hairy plant.

No, thorelii is not hairy, it is glabrous.

[marcello catalano]

Well, guys, we have to discuss this :) François has seen the dry specimens, he re-did the description of the species and he made a taxonomical key, I guess he knows the topic when he says this species is hairy. And as N. kampotiana and N. thorelii are quite similar, and they both grow in southern Vietnam and they both have been poached quite a lot, but N. kampotiana is entirely glabrous, I wonder if there is any confusion going on here. After all, plenty of kampotiana plants can be poached in the wild and sold as true "thorelii" for very high prices. Don't get me wrong, I've never seen a thorelii "live", I can't say much, but I'd like to understand who's actually wrong.

Edited August 20, 2010 by marcello catalano

[Delwin]

Well, guys, we have to discuss this :) François has seen the dry specimens, he re-did the description of the species and he made a taxonomical key, I guess he knows the topic when he says this species is hairy. And as N. kampotiana and N. thorelii are quite similar, and they both grow in southern Vietnam and they both have been poached quite a lot, but N. kampotiana is entirely glabrous, I wonder if there is any confusion going on here. After all, plenty of kampotiana plants can be poached in the wild and sold as true "thorelii" for very high prices. Don't get me wrong, I've never seen a thorelii "live", I can't say much, but I'd like to understand who's actually wrong.

The sharp is right. but the hair part i do not agreed.

[marcello catalano]

Ok, but the point is: maybe the plant you have seen is N. kampotiana, that's why you don't agree and you think N. thorelii is glabrous.

[numpty]

Yes, presumably this is all about trying to match the various "thorelii" plants to the herbarium specimens, as these last are - by definition - the only true, documented thorelii. If the herbarium specimens are hairy, then any thorelii candidates have to be hairy too ...

[Sockhom]

Hi,

The types of N. thorelii (Thorel 1032) are hairy, there's not a single doubt about that. The hairs are short (0.3-0.4 mm) but they are present.

I'm not sure you can really see that on these pictures.

http://dsiphoto.mnhn.fr/sonnera2/LAPI/scan...9/P00038406.jpg

http://dsiphoto.mnhn.fr/sonnera2/LAPI/scan...9/P00038407.jpg

Delwin, if your plant is not hairy, it is not thorelii, period. Or maybe you should have a better look?

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, I don't care about the very few poached so-called "thorelii" in cultivation, what we need is to relocate the putative remaining populations in the wild and set in-situ and ex-situ projects.

Delwin, you will be happy to know that I will return with Vietnamese scientists (from HCM city) to relocate N. thorelii, quite soon.

All the best,

François.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Sockhom

[Milos Sula]

Hi,

The types of N. thorelii (Thorel 1032) are hairy, there's not a single doubt about that. The hairs are short (0.3-0.4 mm) but they are present.

I'm not sure you can really see that on these pictures.

http://dsiphoto.mnhn.fr/sonnera2/LAPI/scan...9/P00038406.jpg

http://dsiphoto.mnhn.fr/sonnera2/LAPI/scan...9/P00038407.jpg

Delwin, if your plant is not hairy, it is not thorelii, period. Or maybe you should have a better look?

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, I don't care about the very few poached so-called "thorelii" in cultivation, what we need is to relocate the putative remaining populations in the wild and set in-situ and ex-situ projects.

Delwin, you will be happy to know that I will return with Vietnamese scientists (from HCM city) to relocate N. thorelii, quite soon.

All the best,

François.

There are many questions. I am little bit confused about this N.thorelii madness...

1. Is really N.thorelii and N.kampotiana distinguished by each other only by the hairs ? That is really...strange. If so i think N.thorelii can be considered as N.kampotiana form. It is really common that most nepenthes does have many different signs and still are in one big group ( for example N.maxima ).If we start to distinguish them with such small details we will have soon 100 new species of nepenthes.

2. I have got the picture from Mr Son . He told me this is N.thorelii from Tay Ninh province. So i thought this is from the poached location near Ti Tinh.But it is possible this is from different location in this province. So i doubt there were any living N.thorelii because they are not able to distinguish them.

3. The hairs could be on whole plant ?

Milos

Edited August 20, 2010 by Milos Sula

[Sockhom]

Hi Milos,

1. No, N. thorelii and N. kampotiana are not distinguished by hairs alone: the leaf attachement, shape of upper pitcher and shape of lower pitchers are distinctive. However, to compare both species, you would need pictures of two big plants. You only showed us a picture of a small lower pitcher. In that case, the easiest is to check the indumentum (the hairs) as Marcello suggested.

Everythings is in the paper: it would be very useful to read it.

Of course, plants are not distinguished by hairs alone. ;-)

2.

I have got the picture from Mr Son . He told me this is N.thorelii from Tay Ninh province. So i thought this is from the poached location near Ti Tinh.

Excuse me to criticize but you shouldn't have made such assumptions yourself. We need to be very cautious when dealing with such datas.

By the way, the poached location was not in Tay Ninh province.

3. Yes.

Milos, do not sell your seedlings as N. thorelii until you're sure of the ID. Sell them as "N. thorelii" (under brackets) like I suggested in the N. thorelii paper. It would be a shame to sell plants as "true" thorelii while they're not. We don't need this. ;-)

All the best,

François.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Sockhom

[Milos Sula]

Thanks François,

i am apologize to you for the disinformation about the picture and i am glad that you have clarified us some questions about N.thorelii.

Milos

[Guest tomkahl]

Hi,

Here are pics of what is NOT N. thorelii. These are images from N. kampotiana. Smoothe leaves and a hairy tendril.

I also have leaf and tendril images of these species to compare; mirabilis,ampullaria,v. globosa,suratensis/suratthani,andamana/giant tiger,kongkandana,bokorensis,smilesii if you are interested.

Truly,

Tom

[Delwin]

Hi,

Here are pics of what is NOT N. thorelii. These are images from N. kampotiana. Smoothe leaves and a hairy tendril.

I also have leaf and tendril images of these species to compare; mirabilis,ampullaria,v. globosa,suratensis/suratthani,andamana/giant tiger,kongkandana,bokorensis,smilesii if you are interested.

Truly,

Tom

Nice pics:)

The hair will be on the leaf and the edge of the leaf the hair will be more:)

[christerb]

Hi François,

Thanks for creating this comprehensive work. Am I to understand that the text (about N. thorellii) from 'Pitcher Plants of the Old World' is not up-do-date any longer. Obviously you pdf is the latest to be published, but while reading it I noticed that you found and examined new herbarium material as early as in 2007, so I was pondering if some of the new info did make it into Stewart's book.

Regards,

Christer

Edited August 22, 2010 by christerb

[Phil Green]

Unfortunately, most of what Stewart wrote on the IC species is out of date - and what has been covered is very brief compared to most other species.

This is the one weak section of the 2 Vols (in my opinion).

[Sockhom]

Hi François,

Thanks for creating this comprehensive work. Am I to understand that the text (about N. thorellii) from 'Pitcher Plants of the Old World' is not up-do-date any longer. Obviously you pdf is the latest to be published, but while reading it I noticed that you found and examined new herbarium material as early as in 2007, so I was pondering if some of the new info did make it into Stewart's book.

Regards,

Christer

Hi Christer,

When Stewart published his PPOTOW, I was working on my N. thorelii paper already but it wasn't finished yet. I didn't want to confuse people by giving incomplete data. Stewart just made everything clear by saying that N. thorelii was only known from herbarium material. I wanted to make a trip in Vietnam first (february 2009) and to finish my holdenii paper before I publish an account on N. thorelii.

It's done now. This thorelii paper is indeed the most comprehensive article we have on this enigmatic species and I think that everyone who reads it will have a clear understanding of the plant botanical and horticultural history.

All the best,

François.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Sockhom

[christerb]

Hi François,

Thanks for the reply, that makes sense. The main reason for asking was the conflicting info about the indumentum. Since PPOTOW includes Lecomte's original description, and it is now known that he had other taxa mixed in the description (as you write in the pdf), that explains this discrepancy.

Regards,

Christer