Aldrovanda

[chloroplast]

Hello all,

I'm a new member of this wonderful site and just began growing CPs last month. I would I'm trying to setup a tank for aldrovanda poland. I've viewed posts on this and other forums, articles on bestcarnivorous plants.com, and scoured the web for other sources of information on Aldrovanda. I think I have a lot of good information, but I have a few questions for anyone who is sucessfully growing these plants:

Background: I want to grow them indoors in a 10 gal tank.

1. Light: how much light do they need? I was going to give them 46W of florescent lighting 14hr/day.

2. Other plants: Are other plants needed to keep Aldo healthy? There seem to be conflicting reports: one source said to avoid surface plants because they will outcompete the Aldro, but another says they are good because they shade the plant, provide oxygen, outcompete algae, and provide hiding places for aquatic fauna. I was thinking about adding some water hyacinth to the tank--is this a good idea, and would plants sold at petstores also be good. In essence, I'm looking for advice on the issue of adding plants.

3. Substrate: What do I put at the bottom of the tank, and in what thickness? I read that people use sedge, peat, and sand. Will using sphagnum peat with sand work well? Is sedge needed, and what exactly is this? If sedge is decaying plant matter, can any decaying plant be used (oak leaves, etc.)? I was thinking 5cm peat covered by 5cm sand as a substrate. Again, just looking for advice on this issue.

4. CO2: Is adding CO2 really necessary? I thought that the decaying plant matter would produce enough of it. If not, I will likely use the "water + sugar + yeast" method.

5. Snails: I read that adding a couple of snails reduces the algae in the tank. Will any old pet-store water snail do, or is there a serious risk of the snails eating the plant? Any other more practical way to control algae?

6. Peat tea: Some make "peat tea" water. What is this, and how do you make it?

7. Feeding: I have a man-made pond nearby. What's the liklihood that it has some daphnia for the aldro to eat.

8. Mixing species: Can aldrovanda poland and the form from australia coexist? Is it wise to try growing both in the same tank?

9. Boron: I read that this is a necessary micronutrient. Where can I purchase some?

10. Nitrogen: Nitrogen and nitrates are bad as they promote algal growth....this much I know. Would you recommend the use of synthetic chemicals that "bind" nitrogen and inactivate it?

I realize there are a lot of questions, but I am new to this. I think I've done a lot of research, and I just need a little help with the nuances. :)

[Rob-Rah]

I can't offer general advice but I do grow it, and I feel quite well - it's currently in full flower... To do each question in turn (according to what I do, which will not be the only right way to do it:

1. Light: how much light do they need? I was going to give them 46W of florescent lighting 14hr/day.

Mine get full, direct sun until early afternoon, when they are shaded, by and by, by greenhouse whitewash and a tree. I believe that the plants like lots of light and that the only reason some people shade them more is to halp avoid algae. Therefore I am not convinced that indoor growing would work under such low lights as you suggest.

2. Other plants: Are other plants needed to keep Aldo healthy? There seem to be conflicting reports: one source said to avoid surface plants because they will outcompete the Aldro, but another says they are good because they shade the plant, provide oxygen, outcompete algae, and provide hiding places for aquatic fauna. I was thinking about adding some water hyacinth to the tank--is this a good idea, and would plants sold at petstores also be good. In essence, I'm looking for advice on the issue of adding plants.

I grow typha minima, carex panicea and water hyacinth with mine. The first two are planted in mesh pots standing on the bottom of the tank. I don't use the water hyancinth to shade the plant, as the Aldro will not grow underneath the hyacinth leaves at all. It is used merely to help extract nitrogen from the water, which cuts down on algal problems. It is kept thinned to only one or two small crowns.

3. Substrate: What do I put at the bottom of the tank, and in what thickness? I read that people use sedge, peat, and sand. Will using sphagnum peat with sand work well? Is sedge needed, and what exactly is this? If sedge is decaying plant matter, can any decaying plant be used (oak leaves, etc.)? I was thinking 5cm peat covered by 5cm sand as a substrate. Again, just looking for advice on this issue.

1"-2" peat, thin layer of sand and then 2" (or more) of sedge litter. Sedge litter is dead leaves of sedges (carex species, but also refers to some typha species). It can be purchased at a price, or you can out into the wild and find bullrushes and collect their dead leaves. It should be boiled before use. I have also used dead leaves from other plants, which helps against algae but the plants don't do so well. Sedge releases humic and tannic acids which might not be so abundant from other leaves - just a guess though.

4. CO2: Is adding CO2 really necessary? I thought that the decaying plant matter would produce enough of it. If not, I will likely use the "water + sugar + yeast" method.

I large layer of decomposing litter on the bottom will release CO2 naturally itself (you can see it bubble periodically) and I do not use any injection devices.

5. Snails: I read that adding a couple of snails reduces the algae in the tank. Will any old pet-store water snail do, or is there a serious risk of the snails eating the plant? Any other more practical way to control algae?

As long as they are a small species they seem to be quite happy browsing on algae and not easting the plants. The main ways to control algae are to a) optimise the conditions for Aldrovanda and let it outcompete algae, b) use companion plants to leech nutrients, c) introduce microfauna such as daphnia, in large quantities periodically until such time as the algae is no longer a problem, and d) keep a good layer of litter on the bottom which increases acidity as it decomposes and lessens algae. In a healthy tank everything works in equilibirium and algae should not have to be treated. If a tank seems to refuse to settle down into such equilibirum after a few weeks, then the water must be changed and you start again.

6. Peat tea: Some make "peat tea" water. What is this, and how do you make it?

Yes do it. You boil peat in water and then strain the water into the tank. No fixed proportion. A handful into a suacepan?

7. Feeding: I have a man-made pond nearby. What's the liklihood that it has some daphnia for the aldro to eat.

Who knows what else you may add too? You don't want to have duckweed taking over so don't use pond water I suggest. You can buy daphnia easily from fish shops.

8. Mixing species: Can aldrovanda poland and the form from australia coexist? Is it wise to try growing both in the same tank?

The Polish form goes dormant in winter, whereas I don't think the tropical forms do. You could attempt to deprive the Polish one of dormancy, but I don't know if that will work long-term.

9. Boron: I read that this is a necessary micronutrient. Where can I purchase some?

I have read this too. No idea. I don't use any.

10. Nitrogen: Nitrogen and nitrates are bad as they promote algal growth....this much I know. Would you recommend the use of synthetic chemicals that "bind" nitrogen and inactivate it?

No. Companion plants will suck it up for you.

As an aside, also, I suggest you do not use a transparent tank. All aqautics do much better in an opaque tank where the light cannot get in through the sides - which is what a pond is like in nature. My tank has about 4" of clear water only before the litter starts - which is very loosely packed for 2" or so before the peat layer on the bottom. However, many people suggest using rather deeper water than this - though mine are very very happy as it is.

Cheers!

[chloroplast]

Hi Rob-Rah,

Words cannot fully express my appreciation for your detailed reply; thank you very much. Your post should be kept at the top of this forum's list, as it provides excellent and understandable information for CP "newbies" (such as myself) who want to try this plant.

I managed to collect decaying leaves of a local species of sedge and cattail (Typha), and I have boiled them as you suggested. I imagine (and hope) that they have similar concentrations of tannins and other compounds. I also found some water hyacinths that I will add to the aquarium, but failed to find live sedge.....hopefully, the hyacinth alone will do.

I am boiling the peat tea as I write. Tastes a little better than the coffee/tea I drank at the caffeteria when I was in college !

Your comment on lighting prompted me to buy a Florex 65W light, which will be ~3" from the Aldrovandas; perhaps this will be enough....only time will tell.

Once again, thank you very much for the help. I'll let you know how things go.

P.S.: I paid a visit to your website.....wonderful! I was going to post a question on how to care for aquatic utrics, but found all the answers there.

[Rob-Rah]

If you are in the UK, I can supply you with a piece of carex panicea (carnation sedge) - pm me. I chose the two species I grow becuase they stay dwarf. I like live plants becuase as their leaves die they fall into the tank replenishing the litter on the bottom for you.

Incidentally, with a sedge, typha and water hyacinth poking over the tank top, how will you get the lights that close to the water? I would start with the lights further away and then bring them closer if the plant seems unhappy - you don't want to risk scorching it at 3" as the bulbs can get quite warm... Have you no outdoors you could place the tank?

Also, bear in mind that if you plan to give the plant dormancy then it will start to form the winter buds any time from now on (though prob not for a month or two yet).

[Sean Spence]

Just one point. Not all of the Australian forms are tropical. There are a couple which do go dormant- the ones from SW WA and NSW.

[BillP]

Hi Rob,

Looks like you're 90% of the way to an Aldovanda FAQ - why not give it a go?

Bill

[Rob-Rah]

lol

I'm a beginner at this plant still. Just posting what works for me.

I think previous posts can be found on the "search" here when cultivation has come up before.

The articles on http://www.bestcarnivorousplants.com/aldrovanda/index.htm are pretty good too.

On re-reading some of the articles on that site, it looks like quite a few of the Australian forms might tolerate a kind of enforced dormancy. I don't grow any of those forms though, so others will have to say.

Cheers.

[Tim]

Just as a note on light, and I haven't tried it yet, but Forbs grows them outside in plastic pails outside with hyacinth growing on top, so there's very little light, and they do fine.

[chloroplast]

Thanks for the offer, Rob; unfortunately, I live in the Massachusetts, US.

I agree with BillP, you should really write an FAQ, or perform a meta-analysis of the available literature/posts! :) The world would thank you for it.

About lighting, the hyacinth are ~1" from the tank cover (the cover keeps humidity high). Initially, I had the light resting on the cover but it got too hot and browned some of the hyacinth leaves. So, I now have the fixture standing on 1" tall clay pot "feet." The air space between the light and cover allows sufficient (or at least much better) heat dissipation with minimum loss of effective light intensity. I don't have a thermometer in the tank, but the water is slightly warm to touch. I read they like temps between 70-85F..... If I had live sedge in the tank, this might pose a problem with the light position. I guess I'll confront this problem it come up.

I was unaware that some Australian species go dormant. I bought an Australian species ("Kimberly Australia Red") hoping to avoid this issue. Looks like I'll have to do some research on whether this particular species requires dormancy....I hope not.

Thank you all for your help.

[chloroplast]

One more question if you don't mind.

I went to my local petstore and they do not sell daphnia or other microfauna. Though there may be daphnia in my local pond, I would like to avoid using pondwater because I may be adding unwanted substances/organisms into the tank and because ponds are unuseable (freeze-over) in winter.

Are there any other sources of daphnia, or aside from typical microfauna, are there any other things I can feed the Aldro and must they be alive and moving (e.g., frozen bloodworms, dried krill, etc.)? Lastly, I read that Aldro are more dependent on carnivory than other CPs; can they go without food for long?

The last thing I'd want is having this beautiful tank setup (light, CO2, sedge, acidic peat water, wonderful plants, snails, companion plants, etc.) and not have simple FOOD to feed the CP!!!! Thanks.

[Binataboy]

I grew mine with no feeding. There were fish in the tank with it so any small animals would have been long gone before the Aldro got to it. I did have to feed heavily with fertlizers, I used aquarium plant food with good sucsess. I also used CO2 and high light. It did very well in this setup.

George

[JanW]

I am currently obtaining some seed of a red tropical form from Australia. Did anyone manage to germinate seeds of Aldrovanda?

Jan

[Dieter]

Hi Rob, just one clarification from me: what you see bubbling is most likely methane. CO2 should be water soluble in the amounts which are set free during decompensition and the conditions you describe. Nevertheless, the gas bubbles indicate the decompensition no matter what really is in there.

Your success in growing this species really is impressive and I hope others do well, too. Isn't it very comforting to read, that you can get these plants into flower without long years of trying? Allthough I do not grow this species (no means to do so), I would really like to see it common in culture. For me, this is one of the most interesting CP species.

Keep going!

Dieter

[Sean Spence]

A form named ("Kimberly Australia Red") will not go dormant and will be a tropical variety. The 'Kimberly' is a region in the north west of WA where many of the petiolaris Drosera grow.

[Rob-Rah]

[Growing] with hyacinth growing on top, so there's very little light, and they do fine.

I have them in various different tanks and locations. Those in shade (in a tank in the greenhouse under water hyacinth, and in a tank under a bush in the garden) grow fine but are substantially smaller in all their parts than those in sun - as little as half the diameter.

[chloroplast]

Thanks for the info. A day after sending the message, I checked my tank and found some nearly-microscopic things moving under the hyacinth/duckweed roots. They've multiplied like mad! I believe these may be daphnia.....whatever they are, I'm pretty sure they're animals and not bacteria, protozoa, algae or plants. Seems like my Aldrovanda will have some food after all.

It's at least somewhat comforting to know that Aldrovanda seems to enjoy a wide window of light conditions (from growing under hyacinth to being in full sun). At least this is one environmental parameter that it doesn't fuss over.

I bought a water-test kit and my KH/GH, pH and nutrients are all ok. I calculated my CO2 from the KH and pH data, and it seems to be 27ppm. Apparently, this is a high CO2 level, but I'd like to do a little better. Based on what I've read, Aldrovanda seems to enjoy CO2 = 0.5-2.0mM (I calculated 2.0mM to be equal to ~ 88ppm). So I think I'll add some CO2 via the yeast method.

I also want to get a partial tank divider to separate the hyacinths/duckweed from the Aldro. This will let the Aldro get light, and allow the other plants to do their thing without getting in the way of the Aldro.

Overall, I think this 10gal setup is doing very well so far. Light, water, non-CPs are all stable. Now, all I have to do is wait for my Aldro to arrive in the mail. I ordered a "Kimberly Red" form......seems like the same kind that JanW ordered????

Thank you all again for your help.....couldn't have gotten this far without your help. Rob-Rah, I hope your working on the Aldrovanda FAQ!!!

[Tim]

Yes, it would be nice if Rob has the time to write up a growing guide.

[Alex Kawazaki]

Hi chloroplast,

Here in Brazil, I have been cultivating my Aldrovandas (Poland) in the same way that I cultivate aquarium plants, or be...

. Free from climatic bad weather, with medium temperatures from 20 to 33ºC;

. Artificial illumination for fluorescent lamps (I use lamps Grolux and some day-light bulbs of 5500-6500K) in a total of 1 Watt of lamp potency for each liter of water of the aquarium;

. I have Aldrovandas in aquariums with substratum and in other aquariums without some substratum and I have not been noticing a lot of difference in the growth of the plants for that, although aquariums with substratum tend to be stableer;

. The peat, or the straws in the substratum, theoretically they would act with a preventive one against algae, because they liberate fulvic and humic acids that has a light action algicid. But I have not been using that not;

. The CO2 injection I have been following the classic income of water+ ferment+sugar, and I note that the Aldrovandas benefits enough of this extra CO2. It is notable the difference among the plants in aquariums with and without CO2;

. There are snails and snails... Depending on the species they can nibble yours plants, here in my aquariums I have neritinas, physas, trumpet and small ramshorn Snails without these have upset the plants;

. As the feeding, I don't have concerned in supplying preys them, and they are going going well like this, occasionally I see some small snails, daphnia and seamonkeys (that give to the fish) captured in the traps, but they are very little and rare the captured preys, therefore the fish be much faster than the aldrovandas...

. Nitrates and Phosphates is what don't lack in an aquarium with fish, because that is interesting, and very useful, to cultivate the aldrovandas with other plants of aquarium of fast growth as egerias and ceratophyllum;

. I use a fertilizer of micro-nutrients regularly (trace elements) that is rich also in boron. I use Flourish of Seachem, that you find at any store of aquariums;

. Avoid herbivore fish, like Goldfishs and Carps

Same here in Brazil, Aldrovandas Poland, in the winter they enter in a stagnation period, without however they form turions...

[chloroplast]

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the helpful hints. I setup a tank with peat, a layer of sand, then a top layer of sedge litter. There is 5" water and a 65W light. The plants are growing with hyacinths and duckweed, with two petstore snails in the tank (large, so I don't think they'll eat the Aldro). There are also some microfauna in the tank.

I recently got the Aldro in the mail and put it into the tank. Unfortunately, two days after getting the plants, a slimy substance began growing on the top of the water. It looks like mucus, so I don't think it's algae (perhaps some type of water mold or fungus?) It began growing thick, and began growing on and around the Aldrovanda. The plant began losing some of its green coloration (i.e., it seemed to begin dying). I removed it from the tank and made an emergency transplant into a very shallow (1" deep) plastic container with a quickly made weak peat tea solution (nothing else in the tray) and put it into one of my terrariums for CPs. The plant seems to be thriving! In less than a week, it has grown new growth equal to ~1/8 of the length of the original plant! I don't think I can keep it in such a small container for long, and without the proper water solutioon/nutrients. But I'm giving serious thought to putting it into only a slightly larger plastic tuppaware container with the appropriate substratum and water solution.

Any advice from you Alex (or anyone else reading this) would be greatly appreciated. My only concern is for the plant, and though it would be regretful if I had to abandon the 10gal tank (it took so long to setup) in favor of a small plastic container, I will do so if it means a greater chance of keeping the plant alive.

Thanks for all your help. Talk to you later,

[Alex Kawazaki]

Hi Chloroplast,

Unhappily I live in a small apartment...

If I had at least a back yard, certainly would try cultivation in open tanks...

But nevertheless I would maintain parallel cultivations in aquariums, for warranty against some eventual problem in the tanks ponds opened...

[JanW]

I grow my A. vesiculosa in such a 16x12x11 cm mini-aquarium! I removed the cover, used a lot of peat in the ground area and put some very fast growing flee floating water plants to remove nutrients.

Jan

[Odysseus]

You all have very interesting and successful ways of cultivating your plants! Thanks for sharing the descriptions, but would you guys mind sharing more images of how you did it? Somewhat of a visual report?

[JanW]

Just to add a note: Currently the number of plants increased. I got 10 plants from a fellow grower and have now 15. The water level is very low at the moment (will refill tomorrow), so the plant have only a half liter of peat water!

I think with peat water and some fast growing plants like Water Hyacinths (Eichhornia crassipes) or Water Lettuce (Pistia stratiotes) you can grow these plants in a nutshell!! Aldrovanda vesiculosa is one of the easiest species in my collection.

Jan

P.S. I will post photographs of my mini growing set-up during the week.

[Odysseus]

I will post photographs of my mini growing set-up during the week.

Thanks, Jan!

[JanW]

See the pictures here:

http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7859

Jan