Allen Lowrie pricelist

[adams]

does anyone have Allen Lowrie's pricelist?

[Pyro]

does anyone have Allen Lowrie's pricelist?

New one is not out yet...

[blueflytrap]

New one is not out yet...

Its been a while since I asked him for one. Has he gone modern (website) or does he still deal in paper Catalogues?

Regards

[Sean Spence]

Still hardcopies.

[Siggi_Hartmeyer]

Maybe it does not matter to you whether you buy artificial propagated plants or such which are dug out in the wild, I don't know. However, since years Lowrie denies all requests how the commercial offered material on his extensive lists was produced. He even denied any reply to that question posted on an official form to him by the German CP society GFP last autumn, after a discussion took place in several forums and in consequence at the GFP AGM 2007. For that reason he was this year officially deleted from the GFP listing of serious CP-sources. I consider his behavior to deny any comment on his commercial offered plants as not serious, and so did the GFP board when they deleted him. Regarding the rules of this forum, that it is not allowed to offer wild collected material, I am again surprised that the origin of Lowries plant material seems to be still out of interest. Main thing for some people is obviously to get every thing no matter if it was collected in the wild. Ignoring national and international laws of nature conservation that way is more than a pitty, in my opinion it's simply a shame.

Edited September 12, 2008 by Siggi_Hartmeyer

[Pyro]

Main thing for some people is obviously to get every thing no matter if dug out in the wild.

Siggi,

While I understand where you are coming from I do not feel it is at all fair or right of you to make such a blanket statement of the people who have participated in this thread. It is possible that some people may be unaware of the situation you noted and some people may have intentions that you are completely ignorant of.

I know you have an interest in Neps (based on other threads I have seen you active it.) There are a number of very highly regarded Nep growers who have material that is blatantly poached material and I have yet to see any public outcry by you or anyone against these people. Why is that? What separates those Nep growers and their associates from the people in this thread?

I respect your knowledge. I respect your opinion. But I do not appreciate your branding everyone who discusses him or inquires about his list as being greedy, self serving, bio-pirating, louts.

[Sean Spence]

Why is that?

A good point Travis and one that I had not considered prior to your post. Perhaps because he has had no bad dealings with them in the past and hance no special agenda........

[adams]

so when does his new list come out?

thanks every one

adam

[Davion]

According to CPoA Volume-1 Allen-Lowrie was Born in 1948 ... This No-Doubt Makes-Him 'About' 60-Years-of-Age, This-Year.

****

I-Find-it 'Hard'-to-Reconcile that Someone at / of Such-an-Age would 'Still'-be Willing to Drive-All-Over-The-State of WA, at Today's Petrol-Prices, Digging-up Tubers for People Overseas Unless it was in-Exchange for Ingots-of-Gold!!!??? >(*U^)<

Of-course 'This'-is an-Assumption that Today's-Practises are Just-the-Actions of a Single-Individual and-it Has Not, by-Now, Become: "An-Operation" ... Where The-Man-Himself is 'Just' a Conduit. >(*~*)<

In-R-Decade, ... He'll-be Seventy and 'Demand' for-Tubers will-have Driven Your-Resource to near-Exhaustion ... so If These Actions 'Are' the Actions of a Single-Individual Then I-Dare-say You've only-Got Perhaps a Decade-[at-the-Most]-Window-of-Opportunity to Finalise Your Tuber-Inventories.

'Now' is the Time to Bring-out The-Big-Gun, ... The-Big-Dosh and Make The-Man-Himself Jump-through-Hoops for 'YOU'-Personally While-You "Reminisce" that You're 'Bach'-in-The-Time of The Tulip-Wars ... 'When'-R-Single-Bulb Could-be Exchanged-for-R-House!!! >(*~*)< / (*U^)<

****

If-You 'Really'-were Benevolent and Had CPs 'Best'-Interests at-Heart You Would Have 'Pooled' Your Resources, by-Now, and Bought The-Bloke a Laminar-flow Cabinet so-that He Could Germinate WA Tuberous Drosera-Seed in-Vitro So-He Could 'Legitimately' and Easily Export The-Genus Around-the-Globe at 'Fair' and Perhaps-ever 'Lower'-Price per Unit-Tuber / Plantlet / Vial.

It'll-be be 'Interesting' to See What-Becomes of This State-Endeavour After-His-Death ... and Whether-or-Not it Actually Continues Openly or in-Secret!!!??? >(*U^)<

My-Suggestion Would-be that Kings-Park Becomes Actively-involved in The-in-Vitro-Propagation of Tuberous-Drosera. Seed(s) could-be Germinated and the Resulting Plants & Microtubers 'Fattened' before Sale to Private-Collectors Overseas. Tubers could Actually be Transported in a Sterile-Membrane in-R-Similar-Manner to-that of Artificial-Embryoes Previously Developed at The Centre-for-Biodiversity.

[Davion]

Before Sean-Spence Pipes-up I-Thought I-Better Mention that I'm 'Not' Against-the-Man-Himself.

In-Fact I-Champion His idea about Polypompholyx being-'Different'-to-Utricularia Solely on The Basis that The-Bladders of Former Face in The-Opposite-Direction to The Latter. >(*~*)< Something that Comes 'Almost' as a Shock to Most Utricularia Devotees, When I-Tell-Them.

'However', Having-Said ... "That" I-Must Also Be-Honest and Say that I-Have Also Read Anecdoteal-Stories in CPoA [in-PARTICULAR The-'One' about Cephalotus Being Trampled Underfoot by Cattle] that Originally Were in The Old Black-&-White CPNs of The Seventies almost Verbatim by another-Author!!!???

This Author 'Did' Venture on Several Field-Trips with The-Man-Himself So The Water is Definitely 'Muddied' if-not Murky ... but it Does Beg-the-Question ... Especially When He Neither Contributes to Discussion or Field-Trip Reports on This or, for-that-Matter, 'Any' International-Forum that I-'Know'-of!!!???

So-I Can't Honestly-Say that The Above information about-Polypompholyx is Actually 'His'-Observation and At-Present only 'Attribute'-it- to-Him ... Half-Expecting to Reread Some-Tome like Taylor, Someday, and Find-it in "That"!!!??? >(*~*)<

[Sean Spence]

Before Sean-Spence Pipes-up I-Thought I-Better Mention that I'm 'Not' Against-the-Man-Himself.

If not for this baiting statement why would I? I'm not sticking up for Lowrie and I'm sure he couldn't care less what goes on in here, I'm merely annoyed by hypocritical positions taken by those with agendas.

[Davion]

'Glad'-to-Hear-that Sean ... You've Drawn a Line-in-The-Sand, Made-R-Stand and Become-R-Man!!!

Though if We Could 'Just' Rid-You of This 'Notion' that Everyone Has Agendas. >(*U^)<

Not-Everyone Goes-through-Life Planning-Something-Else.

Some-People Actually Experiences Things that Make-Them Do Great-Things ... whether it's at-the-time or Later-on in-Life.

[Cas]

since years Lowrie denies all requests how the commercial offered material on his extensive lists was produced. He even denied any reply to that question posted on an official form to him by the German CP society GFP last autumn, after a discussion took place in several forums and in consequence at the GFP AGM 2007.

Is this the basis of the accusation? If all he did was not reply or respond to questions, it hardly means he's guilty of poaching wild plants or anything else. It simply means he's not answering those questions.

[Pyro]

Though if We Could 'Just' Rid-You of This 'Notion' that Everyone Has Agendas. >(*U^)<

Davion, it is a rather well known fact in the community that there is extremely bad blood between Siggi and Lowrie. I am in no position to judge the merit of their feud (and to be honest I could not care less about it) but to deny it is there is the epitome of ignorance. And to deny that it influences Siggi and his tendency to always post like this whenever Lowrie's name comes up transcends ignorance.

If Siggi really truly cared about the poaching of wild material then he would and should be just as critically vocal about it in all its forms. We all know that N. edwardsiana is protected so the ONLY way we can be seeing those in cultivation is if the seed was poached. And we do see them in cultivation, if I were so inclined I could probably get my hands on one by the end of the month without any trouble. Why is it that Siggi is not posting about these plants?? Why is he not slamming anyone who owns one of those plants?

Or how about the numerous seed grown Nepenthes rajah that are in some people's collections? There is one grower who has posted on a number of forums that he has "thousands of from seed N. rajah." Again, we all know this plant is protected so the only way for someone to get seed of it is to poach it. And yet again we never see Siggi make any comment about these plants/seeds or the people growing them. He does not go out of his way to point out that the main thing for these people is obviously to get everything they want no matter if torn out of the wild.

I could go on in this manner but I feel it would be beating a dead horse. If Siggi really was so impassioned about the evils of poaching then he would be speaking out about all occurrences which he clearly does not. He only speaks out against Lowrie and anyone who might support him by purchasing from him.

So, while you may be correct that not everyone "has agendas" I believe that Sean is correct that in this case there most certainly is an agenda.

Is this the basis of the accusation? If all he did was not reply or respond to questions, it hardly means he's guilty of poaching wild plants or anything else. It simply means he's not answering those questions.

Snuffy,

You are correct. However, some people take a refusal to answer as an admission of guilt. And sometimes that may be the case... But by that same token, sometimes it is not the case...

Edited September 16, 2008 by Pyro

[Davion]

First-of-All ... 'POACHING' is 'Not' The Only-Way in These Post-Lowrie / Stewart-McPherswon Times to Obtain Nepenthes-rajah etc..

They are Available in Tissue-Culture Flask-form from a Number of Distributors These-Days or as Live-Plants if You're 'Within' Country-Borders. They 'Are' Pricey and There will-be Paperwork to fill-out ... but They 'Are' Available ... but Instead of Buying Ten-Plants at-R-Time You 'May'-have to Save Your Pennys and Buy-only a Few-Plants per-year ie it's-R-Bit like Rationing During Wartime.

Of-Course if People 'Like'-Lowrie Had Done-The-Right-Thing in-The-Past We Wouldn't Even be in a Rationing-Mode We-Would have Long-since past-'That' Point and may-even have Avoided The Overwhelming Threat of Monocultural Oil-Palm Plantations When Nothing 'Screams' Louder than The Irish-Potatoe-Famine(s) ... Where 1/4 of The Population of Ireland Died and Another 1/4 was forced to-Emigrate (mostly to The United-States as-well-as Australia). If The massive oil-Palm-Plantations of Indonesia are Wiped-out by Some Unforeseen 'Blight' or Cancur it-could Lead to a Nasty-War with Australians Having to Lay Their Lives-on-The-Line to Protect Our Shorlines From Morauding Hordes of Economic-Refugees from The-Consequences of Quite-Frankly: ... Stupity, Shortsightedness & Incompetence.

What-I Don't-Understand & have Never-Understood is 'How' One-Man Can Have a Bottleneck / Stranglehold on The Transfer of WA Tuberous-Drosera Seed out-of-The-Country!!!??? If There is Such-R-Demand ... 'Why' does No-other Step-in to 'Fill'-the-Void and Meet the Overwhelming and Seemingly-Insatiable Demand?

****

As-to-Ziggi:

No 'True'-Australia Would ever Dare-Threaten to Leave another Australian, Let-alone a Foreigner, out in The Australian-'Bush' ... 1000-Kilometres from Any-form of Civilization ... We-All 'Know' How Quickly-&-Deadly it Can-Become.

It's for This Reason and This Reason 'Alone' that He Became Persona-non-Grata Among 'True'-Australians.

If-I Came-to-Your Country I'd Expect Nothing-less than to-be Protected-from and Shielded-against Your 'Known'-Dangers & Unforesceen-Obstacles.

[laura]

So back to the original question, any idea when a new price list will come out, and how would I get my grubby little paws on one?

Thanks, Laura

[Pyro]

@ Davion,

There are 4 documented clones of N. rajah in tissue culture. And all 4 clones are male. This is, again, common knowledge in the community.

So I stand by my point that the only way for someone to have gotten seed of rajah is for that seed to have been poached. The whole god forsaken mountain is protected and NO ONE, eight or eighty, blind or crazy, local or foreign is allowed to remove material from it.

And there were never any lines of edwardsiana in tissue culture until that batch of poached seed was "released" to a few people. One person chose to grow out the seed and sell the resulting plants. I know of a couple others who placed some of the seed in culture.

But that is neither here nor there. The point I was and am making is that, if Siggi were serious about being against poaching on the whole (as his post sure seems to indicate) then he bloody well ought to be speaking out about these instances and a dozen or more others as well. And he is not. Plain and simple. He only posts about the wrongs of poaching when it comes to Lowrie.

@ Adam and Laura,

IIRC it usually comes out Oct/Nov.

[Davion]

First-of-All ... Not-Being-R-"Nepenthes-Legend" I'm Quite-Happy to-Be 'Corrected' ... but over-the-Years (36-Years as a CPer, Now) I've 'Absorbed' via Osmosis that Nepenthes-rajah 'Also' occurs on The Surrounding Hills ie Not-'Just' Kinabalu ... or at-Least 'Did' Until Fairly-Recently.

****

The 'Sex' of Marijuana-Plants Can be Altered or 'Changed' via the Application of Commercially-Available Phytohormones-Products such-as: "Bud-Wise" ... so Instead of Bemoaning the-Fact that All-'Suppos-sed'-Clones of Rajah in-Cultivation are Male 'Why'-Not Practise with a Related but more-Common and 'Sacrificeable' Species such-as Maxima!!!??? There-are about 20 Commonly Purchaseable Auxin-Hormones that You Can Experiment-with ... so Don't Give-up if Bud-Wise Doesn't 'Work' First-Time ... and They Can Also be applied in-Tissue-Culture if 'Space' is-R-Problem and You Can Also 'Force'-Things to flower very-Quickly & in very-Small-Jars Using Tissue-Culture ... such that Everything can be Made to be very-Cost-Effective and Temporally very-'Quick'.

****

Last-Night Before-I Went-to-Sleep I-Did Some 'Rough'-Calculations in-My-Head.

Reputedly Allen-Lowrie Sank $40,000 Dollars of His Own Money into The Publication of His First Two-Books [i Don't Have any Figures regarding How-much The 'Thicker', slightly-more-Expanded, Third-Volume 'Cost' to-Produce].

I-Worked-out that a Standard Print-Run of 10,000 Books Would Comfortably Fit in-R-Average-Room or Garage with 50-to-an-Archive-Box 6-Wide, Seven-High and Ten-Rows Deep and at a Before-Tax Return of $400, 000 Dollars Australian [Assuming a Cost-Price of $50-Dollars R-Copy] Would-be Equivalent to 1.2 Kilos of GOLD at Today's 'Near'-Thousand-Dollars-an-Ounce Price.

Assuming the 'Same' Rough-Equivalent-Price of Fifty-Dollars-R-Copy and The-Expanded 20,000 Print-Run Done-in-Asia for The Third-Volume I-Reckon that He Should Have 'Pulled'-in about 2-Mill. All-up, Pre-Tax..

At 8-10,000 Dollars ... a Dual-Modular Laminar-Flow-Cabinet Should be Well-within The-Affordability of Someone as Affluent at Allen-Lowrie. I'm Sure He Wouldn't-even have to Contemplate Hiring-Someone to Do The-Work for-Him ... They Would do-it Gratis, One-day per-Weekend, 'Just' for The Experience & The 'Love'-of-CPs. >(*U^)<

****

As-to-Ziggi again.

You May-Have somewhat-of-R-Point but I-Haven't-'Heard' of Other-People with an-Equivalent-Reputation as You Imply ... but Then-again I'm Not Really 'Into'-Nepenthes ... well 'Not'-Yet anyway.

Also Having 'Seen' The Two Recent EEE-Conferences on-Disc The Tissue-Culture of Rarer-species Seems-to-be far-more Progressed or 'Progressive' [Prevalent] in-Europe than 'Here' or in Other-parts of The-World. This is Probably Due to The Reduction of European-Borders and an added-advantage of a Common-Currency making Purchases from Far-Flung regions of The-Continent easier & more-Attractive and-of inherently Greater Value or Purchasing-Power since nothing is 'Lost' or extracted in The-Purchase ie No-more Bank-Drafts or Their-Equivalents ... losing upto a Third of Your Money with Each Transaction >(*~*)<. There-is also The Intereconnectivity of Europe of-Course Now with upto 200Mgs / Second ... that Certainly Does-'Help' When 'Everybody' Has-the-Ability to 'Know' What Really 'IS' Going-on ... again if-You've Got-Nothing to-Hide Then You've Got-Nothing-to-Fear.

I-'Suspect' This May-be a Partial-Reason Why Some-People are Seen to-be R-Bit-'Slow' When-it-Comes to Cracking-on to The Internet.

If You've 'Learnt'-to-Use-R-Photocopier to Punch-out Thousands-of-Brochures for-Decades then The Same-Principles can-be Applied to Computers-&-The-Internet.

[blueflytrap]

I only came back to this thread after some time. What I will say is that Allen Lowrie has always been courteous and extremely helpful when I have had dealings with him.

I was completely unaware of anything that Siggi was alluding to, but what I would say in the man's defense (if he actually needs it!) is that its not a crime to say nothing (especially on forums where words can be twisted or misunderstood) and to judge him thus is a real shame.

What I will say is that I disagree with poaching, but it must also be bourn in mind that we all ride on the shirtails of the original poacher (whoever thay are) - every plant in your collection had to have been collected in the field, whether by seed or plant, so it makes me smile slightly when I see this high and mighty attitude.

Regards

[Davion]

I-'Quite' Believe-You ... We-Here in-Australia Have Long-&-Often Talked-about The 'Way' The Anecdotal-Stories about Allen-Lowrie Fall-into only Two-Camps ... almost as-if The-Man is Bipolar.

People Either Say 'Nice'-Things about-Him or They Have been "Shafted" ... there's Really 'Nothing'-inbetween. >(*~*)<

Even Our Own President of Our Society Got "Shafted"-by-Him and in Such an Ignominous-way that We All-Sorta 'Cringed' as He Stood-up and Recanted the-Story to-Us.

It's 'Hard'-to-Feel Sorry about Someone You Really-don't-Like ... but The Story was soo-Compelling that it-was 'Hard'-to-Stop the ol'-Empathy-Gene from Switching-"ON"!!! >(*~*)< / >(*U^)<

Part-of-The Reason We-Didn't Like-Him was that He'd Get Allen to Send-over some GIANT-Tubers of This-species-or-that and Stick-'em on The Display-table and There was absolutely No-Way anyone Could-Compete and This Went-on Year-after-Year in The 1980s.

****

During The Second-Half of My-Childhood over-in-WA ... He-was a Totally-Nobody ... He wasn't The Person You Went-to or Contacted for CPs.

What 'Appears' to Have Happened overthere after-I Came Here in 1978 is that He Went-around Contacting The Local-Enthusiast / Growers and Cajoled-Them into Taking-Him on Field-Trips ... Apparently Gleaning All Their Local-Field-Trip Knowledge Built-up over Many-Years of Painstaking-Effort.

This-Then, Became The 'Bach'-bone of His Early Literary-Works even-to-the Extent of Incorporating Ancedotal-Stories which 'Appear' to-Be "His" ... but if You Go-'Bach' Far-Enough in The Literature You-can often-Find passages that-are Almost Verbatim and-yet there-appears-to-be no-'Direct' Credit Given to The original Author(s) ... such that People Reading These Anecdotes in The Future Will 'Automatically' Attribute-Them to-Him.

****

Basically it-Seems that R-lot-of-Us, in-this-Land, are 'Just'-Waiting for This-Bloke to-Die ... so CPs can Really Take-off in This-Country ... But-He Seems-to-Be a Resilient ol'-b****** ... so-I Don't 'Know' if I Should Get a Ten-Year Calendar for The 'Bach'-of-My-Toilet-Door or 15!!!??? >(*U^)<

The Recent Photo-of-Him on This Listserve of-Him Looking-somewhat-like a Shopping-Mall-Santa has Given-Me, Pause-for-Thought, and-R Great-deal-of-Hope.

I-'Just' Want-some Certainty on The-Problem ... some sort of 'Rough'-Timeline to Happiness. R-We're Finally-'Bach' to How it Use-to-Be sort-R-Thing - Fresh-air At-Last!!! >(*U^)<

Like-in The Good-ol'-Days of Kings-&-Queens and All-Things Monarchy:

"The-Tyrant-is-Dead .... Long-Live The-Tyrant".

It's R-Bit like All-Those Reality Murder shows that -R Quite-Popular on The TV at the Moment. You Watch-Them, Ponder-on-Them and Then Many-Months Later its the 'Odd' Thing in The Show that Sticks-out and in-Your Mind.

A Salient-Example for-Me Would-be The Ivan-Malat, Bangaloo-State-Forest Back-Packer-Murders.

Even Though I've Seen about Three Shows on This Topic, including 'One' that-was very-Graphic ... it's the Fact that-They 'Imply' that The Killings Could 'Not'-have-be the Sole-actions of just-'One'-Man that Chillingly Haunts-Me to-This-Day ie There's at Least One-other Person out-There Still-Uncaught.

In My-Mind, 'That's-Were I Place Allen-Lowrie ... in The Imponderables-Location as-if He's The Second or Third-Half / Part of Some Hauntingly-Sinister Goings-on in-The-World at-Large.

I-Guess We Won't-have Long to-Wait or I-Hope 'Not' ... for I Really 'Would'-like to-'Know'!!!

I-Guess that Makes-Me: "Inquisitive".

[andyinsuffolk]

I only came back to this thread after some time. What I will say is that Allen Lowrie has always been courteous and extremely helpful when I have had dealings with him.

I was completely unaware of anything that Siggi was alluding to, but what I would say in the man's defense (if he actually needs it!) is that its not a crime to say nothing (especially on forums where words can be twisted or misunderstood) and to judge him thus is a real shame.

What I will say is that I disagree with poaching, but it must also be bourn in mind that we all ride on the shirtails of the original poacher (whoever thay are) - every plant in your collection had to have been collected in the field, whether by seed or plant, so it makes me smile slightly when I see this high and mighty attitude.

Regards

Very nicely put BlueFlyTrap.

I agree with you 100%.

British Telecom have no doubt been delighted with the many hours I have spent on the phone to Allen over the last 15 years or so but he is one of the most fascinating blokes I know, added to which, he has a superb sense of humour!

Andy

[Guest paultemple]

I can't help with a price list but I do want to comment on Allen - though he's perfectly capable of looking after himself!

I've known Allen (from a distance) since the early 1980. As others have said, opinions seem to be divided, some liking him, some not. Hey - guess what - isn't same true of everyone?

Again, as others have said, I have ALWAYS found Allen to be friendly, humorous, helpful, honest and knowledgeable. Yep, I'm sure it's true that he learnt tons from other people. Now, let me see, don't I remember that I spent almost my entire first 24 years (excluding the 4 years before school began) learning everything I then knew from other people? There were teachers, books (written by other people), TV and radio (written and presented by other people), my parents, etc. The facts that if all Allen did was absorb what others WILLINGLY told him and then make use of it to publicise it, whether or not for profit, there's absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, well over 90% of all modern factual books are exactly that (ask any Publishing House if you don't believe me), information that people obtained from other books or people and regurgitated for profit. I do not hear or see critics of Allen being equally critical of others who do or did the same!

Now it is of course possible that Allen has done something "inappropriate" to one or more people. However, all the stories I've ever heard are second hand, incomplete and without accompanying evidence. I'm not saying anyone would ever lie about such a thing but I really do not think I (or perhaps others) can be in a position to judge who is right and who is wrong or perhaps how much each person was to blame for the other's actions and opinions if I wasn't there, I didn't see or hear what actually happened and I definitely didn't not hear all sides of the story.

As to the often discussed issue of how Allen sources his material that he sells, I detect quite a lot of hypocrisy, though not always from those who are most vocal. I've regularly contributed to the ICPS Listserv. In may of those discussions, people repeatedly argue FOR distribution of plants taken illegally from the wild (note: any person taking ANY plant, seed or even information (!) from plants in the wild in a country of which they are not a national is AUTOMATICALLY and ALWAYS in breach of Biodiversity regulations unless they have a licence) as they say this is the only way to limit further theft of plants from the wild. So IF Allan's plants are wild sourced (and nobody has ever presented a shred of evidence to show they are), then he is only doing what many people argue they would do, actually do or want others to do, especially so if the plant is rare! In reality, most people probably would not have grown most tuberous or pygmy sundews had it not been for Allan. If you have some, you probably aren't in a position to criticise the source! (Same goes if you have ANY other species sourced from stock illegally removed from the source country.)

Returning to his knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Allen published various new species? If so (of course it's so), how can he be criticised? If someone else knew of the species and wanted to publish , the fact that Allen got there first is absolutely normal behaviour for botanists - they all strive to publish before anyone else. Nobody criticises the others for it! In any case, you can't publish a new species without knowledge, no matter where you got it from.

I don't know why Allen has become the target of so much venom. It seems to me that he gets an unfair level of it and from too many people, far more than he coul dhave directly upset (asssuming he upset any).

I'm pleased to call him a friend - but that doesn't mean I would feel unsympathetic to anyone (including Allen) over any unfortunate events that may have happened or that people think may have happened. Even if Allen had done something I didn't like, haven't we all done something that perhaps we shouldn't have ? Except for me of course :-)

I'm not religious but just occasionally I think the bible has the odd line of down to earth wisdom within it. "Let he without sin cast the first stone!".

Cheers

Paul

[adams]

i dont want this topic to become a thread of arguement so mods plz delete.

thank you

adam s

[blueflytrap]

Basically it-Seems that R-lot-of-Us, in-this-Land, are 'Just'-Waiting for This-Bloke to-Die ... so CPs can Really Take-off in This-Country ... But-He Seems-to-Be a Resilient ol'-b****** ... so-I Don't 'Know' if I Should Get a Ten-Year Calendar for The 'Bach'-of-My-Toilet-Door or 15!!!??? >(*U^)<

The Recent Photo-of-Him on This Listserve of-Him Looking-somewhat-like a Shopping-Mall-Santa has Given-Me, Pause-for-Thought, and-R Great-deal-of-Hope.

Awww Davion, that's just not nice.

As Paul Temple has pointed out the guy has been responsible for soucing and introducing species, writing books and generally advancing the CP hobby and specifically the Australian side of things. What does he do in his spare time, act like some sort of CP godfather, with the threat that this is "......my territory...and don't you forget it"

Nope , I shouldn't think so, so what's stopping the hordes of Oz CP hobbyists from becoming, breeders, authors, explorers etc etc. Not one old man surely?

Regards

[Davion]

Well, 'Actually' ... Yes!

That's-Rhoughly 'What'-He Said to Robert-Gibson in The Early-Nineties. I-Don't 'Know' Exactly What Colourful-Language was Used ... but it-was Enough to Cause The-Poor-Guy to-Have-to Phone-Home to His-Parents! >(*~*)<

Lets-Face-it He's Renown for Some-of The Most Colouful-Language on The-Planet.

I-Actually 'Heard' from One-of-The-Two Gay-Guys of The New-South-Wales Society 'Exactly' What He-Said-to-Them When They Turned-up on His Door-Step for-R 'Spot'-of-Tea One Afternoon ... so-I-Can Well-"IN"-Magine How Such-R Selection of Words Could Shiver-the-ol'-Timbers, so-to-Speak.

****

You Don't Live-Here You Don't-'Know' Kind'a'-Thing.

****

Though You Have to Ask-Yourself The-Question: 'Why' Every-other State in-Australia Has a CP-Society or Group(ing)s and Yet WA Does-'NOT' ... The Place with The Most Diverse and Concentrated Grouping of CPs on The-Planet & 'Why' The One in The Late-Seventies / Early-Eighties 'Seemingly' Vapourised for no-real-reason Never-to-be-Seen-again sort'a'-Thing!!!???

As-to Publications I-vaguely-Remember There were a Flurry of Publications by The-Authorities in The Nineties When it Appear that The Original-Discoveres of Certain-species weren't Going-to-be Honoured ... definitely a No-no among Professional-Botanists. Correct-Me, If-I'm-Wrong ... but I-Think Plaguerism in any-Guise is frowned-upon in Most-Field-of-Endeavour. I've Certainly-Heard through-the-Grapevine that a Number of His / Their? so-called 'Friendships' were Irrevocably-'Broken' because of-These Indiscressions.

As-to-Collaborations ... These Apparently Fall-through For Some-'Strange' but-Apparently Consistent-Reason. I-'Know'-Myself, Being R-Person that Does-All-the-Extras, that I'd only Dissove R-Collaboration if-I Found-(out) that I-was Apparently Doing Most-if-not-All of The-Work and in-R-Way being 'Used'. This Seems to Tie-in or Tally-well with What I've Read in the Old Black-&-White CPNs as-well-as CPNAs [Carnivorous Plant Newsletter(s) of Australia] that I-Have Mentioned-before in-This-Thread.

Actually The Word: "USE" was the Precise-Word Profferred to Dissolve the Twenty-or-more Year 'Friendship' of One-of-Our Past-Presidents. I-Remember He made a Point of Drawing-Our Attention to The-Fact that He-had 'Not' Said: 'I-Have No-Use for-You Anymore' ... but Rather & More-Pointedly Said: "I-Can't USE-You Anymore". I-Can't 'Fathom' 'Why' Someone Would make such-an-Effort after Twenty-years ... let-alone before VOIP-Phone-Prices.

I-Have R-Letter in My-Filing-Cabinet from Someone in-Victoria, Who Knew-Him, Went-on-Field-Trips with-Him and Who Had Long Telephone Conversions with-Him, Stating as-R-Joke that Allen-Lowrie Lives for Only Two-Things: "Money-&-Ego".

To-Me This Joke Seems to Ring-Truer-&-Truer as The Years Go-by and Appears to-be Connected in- Someway to Much-of-The-Above.

If-I Live Long-enough I-Hope to Oneday Read a Bestseller about The-Man-Himself and All-that Actaully or 'Really' Went-on over the-Years. I-Reckon I-Wouldn't be-able to Put-it Down and-Would Read-it in 'One'-Sitting ... Surrounded with The Remains of Countless Cups-of-Coffee. >(*U^)<