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Exactly how are people growing their SE North American Pings


LauraZ5

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I am most curious about how people out there (who are successful) have been growing Pings such as caerulea, planifolia, inonantha, lutea, pumila, and primulflora inside?

P caeurelea seems to like a potting mix somewhat different from the others and it also seems to like somewhat drier growing conditions. I have not been utilizing the tray method where water is allowed to wick up into the medium but watering each pot individually after having created a well in the corner of each pot.

To date, I've been planting all of my southeastern Pings in somewhat the same potting mix and I am beginning to question this. P. caerulea and P lutea I have been growing in a rinsed sand and Canadian sphagnum peat mix while the others I have been growing in a rinsed sand/Canadian sphagnum peat/1-3mm gray pumice mix.

Please be specific because I would like to know what potting mixes people are using for which Pings listed above and how much and what kind of lighting is being provided as well as how everyone is watering their plants.

Thanks ever so much to anyone who has time to share with me how they meet the cultural requirements of these specific Pings.

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I have P. primuliflora & caerulea doing fine as open tray, by southern window sills. I don't have any fancy mixes - just sand and peat, with a little LFS on top. It works for me.

A am not sure what P. 'Aphrodite' or P. rectifolia or P. grandiflora or P. 'Titan' are, but they are in the same conditions and producing leaves.

As a side note, P. primuliflora DOES flower for me! :lol: [/i]

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P. grandiflora is a temperate species. I've got that growing here and it is out in my garage right now with the P. macroceras, P. villosa, and P. vulgaris. They are all down to little hibernacula.

I don't know if you have seen this site but it gives a great breakdown-

http://www.omnisterra.com/botany/cp/slides/pings/pings.htm

I don't grow 'Aphrodite' or rectiflolia so I can't comment on those but 'Titan' I am relatively sure is agnata x zecheri and both of those are Mexican Pings and do require a sort of quasi dormancy where I reduce the water and back them out of full sun. I basically moved them into a cooler location inside my home and cut the water down to basically just keeping the potting medium damp. Hope somebody corrects me if this is wrong.

Is anyone else out there growing southeastern Pinguicula who can share how they grow their plants?

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P. 'Aphrodite' is P. agnata x moctezumae.

Technically, Pinguicula 'Aphrodite' is actually any plant that fits the written description and photographic standard for this cultivar, regardless of its parentage.

The originators of this cultivar describe their entire F1 generation of their initial cross between (Pinguicula agnata x Pinguicula moctezumae) as indestinguishably identical and registered this name for them. This cultivar is not necessarily any plant with the same parents, (cultivars are not another way to create a "hybrid" name) and another cross of the same two species, even using the same parents, would not necessarily produce the same cultivar, unless the plant(s) produced matched the written description and photographic standard.

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Technically, Pinguicula 'Aphrodite' is actually any plant that fits the written description and photographic standard for this cultivar, regardless of its parentage.

Ok, I had always assumed to be considered a member of the cultivar that the plant had to be an actual clone of the named plant, with that in mind wouldn't it be impossible to get a plant that matches the written description and photographic standard using any other parentage? Unless one parent had Pinguicula agnata and the other had Pinguicula moctezumae ([Pinguicula agnata x Pinguicula ?] x [Pinguicula moctezumae x Pinguicula ?]), and the genes passed on in the cross were only those from those 2 species, even that would be a miracle of biblical propotions, since the chance that the genes needed to create a match of the written description and photographic standard had been passed on to the initial cross and then again to the final plant would be slim.

cultivars are not another way to create a "hybrid" name

I understand that, they are a way of naming a plant with unique characteristics. Such as the cultivars of Dionaea. Since there is no such thing as a hybrid VFT.

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Gawd_oOo,

I too had made the same initial assumption (I came to CP from a long history of cultivating orchids). Unfortunately for many of us, the naming conventions, for orchids, are somewhat unique in the horticulture world. With orchids, pedigree records are kept and hybrids between species, different genera, and other hybrids are assigned unique names. Cultivars are selected from species and named or unnamed hybrids alike, published and registered and the pedigree is maintained even for cultivars..

Certainly CP cultivars, as with most other plant groups, may be difficult (but not impossible) to duplicate even when the same genetically identical parents are used that produced the initial plant(s) that constitute that cultivar registration. Remember, genetic identity is not being registered, only a name is being associated with a description (written and photographic). The method used to create a plant that matches that description is irrelevant. Certainly it would be extremely unlikely, though not impossible to recreate plants matching a previously published and registered cultivar description from different genetic material. But consider the degree of specificity used in the cultivar description can be an important factor too.

I added my comments primarily to help ensure supression of the assumption that all plants produced by crossing (Pinguicula agnata x Pinguicula moctezumae) were automatically granted the cultivar name: Pinguicula 'Aphrodite', which they are not. Some persons historically have made a similar assumption concerning the hybrid; (Pinguicula ehlersiae x Pinguicula moranensis), assuming the cultivar names 'Weser' and 'Sethos' were names for the cross of these two species rather than, more accurately, that they were specific selections from progeny of this cross.

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:( I felt guilty for my part in steering this thread away from its initial subject, and I was about to do just as you ask, but I had to make a quick trip to the grocer this morning for my wife to have her holiday baking ingredients.

Hey Joseph, as always... your posts are rammed with good quality information. I so love to read what you type.

On a side note... I know you grow southeastern NA Pings. Will you share with me how you are growing your SE NA Pinguicula plants?

Yes, I have grown them on and off for nearly 35 years. I continue to have intermittent success with Pinguicula planifolia, and slightly more than moderate success with all the others.

How I do it:

Media: 3 parts coarse silica sand / 1 part peat moss / 1 part fine silica sand, 1/2 part diatomaceous earth (pool filter media). All ingredients are rinsed in pure water until the rinse water is below 20ppm. Though I have avoided perlite for a long time and have used pumice as a bottom layer and a vertical layer in the middle of some pots to enhance aeration and drainage, I plan to include some perlite incorporated into the mix in the near future.

Light: Strong cool-white (4100K) fluorescent with 15 or more hour photo period.

Water: Purified with reverse osmosis (R.O.) to below 4ppm. Kept in plastic shoebox sized trays that are flooded and then the level is allowed to subside until the trays are dry, but the pots stay wet, then the water level is renewed.

Temperature: I generally don't pay much attention to this, just keep it within human comfort levels.

Two things I've recently started doing that seem to increase my success with this group:

1) Using RootShield® brand Trichoderma harzianum powder lightly sprinkled on the roots when transplanting.

2) Sprinkling a dusting of dried, powdered insects into the planting hole when transplanting.

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Oh gosh, never ever feel guilty for steering any thread of mine away from an original subject. Big deal. Seriously, I learn more when people get side tracked than you would imagine. Actually, I love it when people get off the original topic or hijack. Makes life more interesting.

You've somewhat modified or fine tuned your growing methods. I asked a question a while ago about benefits of adding Diatomaceous Earth to potting mixes. That certainly would make short work of many pests. My concern was the pH drop that would occur by adding it. Just out of curiosity, do you add Diatomaceous Earth to any other mixes for other CPs?

I hate to start splitting hairs here but...

did you literally mean 3 parts coarse silica sand / 1 part peat moss / 1 part fine silica sand to 1/2 part diatomaceous earth... mix it all together and then add an equal quantity of Diatomaceous Earth? Let's say 3 Cups coarse silica sand/ 1 Cup peat moss/ 1 Cup fine silica sand and then you would basically add 5 Cups of Diatomaceous Earth? Is my understanding correct? Or was your intent that the mix contain 1/2 Cup Diatomaceous Earth?

I don't use perlite in any of my Ping mixes. I prefer the gray pumice per your suggestion a few years ago and I do add that horizontal layer in most pots per your directive a few years ago. I think that vertical layer truly does increase aeration. Why do you plan on beginning to add back perlite into your mixes?

Why do you think sprinkling a dusting of dried, powdered insects into the planting hole when transplanting is increasing your success rate? When I first read that I thought you might have made a mistake and had meant sprinkling a dusting of dried powedered insects on to the leaves but you don't make typos like that based on my experience with you.

Where are you purchasing your RootShield® online?

Last question, what distance are your lights from your plants?

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1 You've somewhat modified or fine tuned your growing methods. I asked a question a while ago about benefits of adding Diatomaceous Earth to potting mixes. That certainly would make short work of many pests. My concern was the pH drop that would occur by adding it. Just out of curiosity, do you add Diatomaceous Earth to any other mixes for other CPs?

2 I hate to start splitting hairs here but...

did you literally mean 3 parts coarse silica sand / 1 part peat moss / 1 part fine silica sand to 1/2 part diatomaceous earth... mix it all together and then add an equal quantity of Diatomaceous Earth? Let's say 3 Cups coarse silica sand/ 1 Cup peat moss/ 1 Cup fine silica sand and then you would basically add 5 Cups of Diatomaceous Earth? Is my understanding correct? Or was your intent that the mix contain 1/2 Cup Diatomaceous Earth?

3 I don't use perlite in any of my Ping mixes. I prefer the gray pumice per your suggestion a few years ago and I do add that horizontal layer in most pots per your directive a few years ago. I think that vertical layer truly does increase aeration. Why do you plan on beginning to add back perlite into your mixes?

4 Why do you think sprinkling a dusting of dried, powdered insects into the planting hole when transplanting is increasing your success rate? When I first read that I thought you might have made a mistake and had meant sprinkling a dusting of dried powedered insects on to the leaves but you don't make typos like that based on my experience with you.

5 Where are you purchasing your RootShield® online?

6 Last question, what distance are your lights from your plants?

1 Be careful not to confuse these two; Diatomaceous Earth ≠ Dolomite

--- Diatomaceous Earth is predominantly minute to microscopic sharp silica fragments of the skeletons of fresh-water diatoms. Like you suggest, I have found its pH to be much higher than 7, possibly because of calcium carbonate contributed by other aquatic organisms. To overcome this potential drawback, I make my first rinse with a strong solution of citric acid, but I would imagine that most any acid would be suitable if proper precautions are observed. I’m sure that even vinegar would suffice. But be sure to rinse out all the acid before use.

--- Dolomite is approximately the reciprocal of Diatomaceous Earth, mostly calcium and magnesium carbonates, with some small amount of silica. Possibly good for many Mexican Pinguicula, but not many other CP.

I use Diatomaceous Earth to interfere with harmful Nematodes, though I’m fairly certain that it affects Nematodes indiscriminately.

2 ½ = one half, so one half part. If you use cups, it would simply be one half cup.

3 I plan to begin using some perlite in order to further increase aeration, drainage, and to help lighten the mix.

4 Several reasons:

1) Since rinsing the media ingredients, virtually eliminating any media-borne nutrients, seems to produce pale and apparently malnourished plants, I decided to sprinkle this insect powder near the Trichoderma harzianum inoculated roots to add some back and to provide something for the Trichoderma harzianum to assimilate. Trichoderma harzianum is said to act as a scavenger on behalf of its host plant(s).

2) That Nematode eggs have a chitin shell and insect exoskeletons are composed of the same. Adding this to the dark, moist media will increase the quantity of chitin-eating bacteria which will kill Nematode eggs.

3) In the wild, rain washes many of the prey from the leaves down into this same area at the base of the plant.

5 From both Gardener’s Supply Company and Johnny’s Selected Seeds.

6 As close as the trays and flowers allow. Six inches or less, usually much less.

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Awesome! Thank you.

I wasn't confusing Diatomaceous Earth with Dolomite but the reference to pool filter media did throw me off. You are actually using Diatomaceous Earth. Good, I've wanted to toss that in for the longest time. Thanks for mentioning how you reduce the alkalinity and vinegar has worked for me just fine. I do believe the calcium carbonate to be responsible for the high pH level that would ultimately leach into a potting medium if it wasn't knocked down a tad before being mixed in.

I've been watering most of my plants with stock piled rain water but I do from time to time resort to RO when I run out. I had to bypass the DI phase because my water pressure was too low but I'm still getting ppm readings of well under 20 so I'm ok there.

"decided to sprinkle this insect powder near the Trichoderma harzianum inoculated roots to add some back and to provide something for the Trichoderma harzianum to assimilate. Trichoderma harzianum is said to act as a scavenger on behalf of its host plant(s)." I knew you'd have a perfectly sound reason for sprinkling the insect powder in the hole where you would be planting the Ping. And, "That Nematode eggs have a chitin shell and insect exoskeletons are composed of the same. Adding this to the dark, moist media will increase the quantity of chitin-eating bacteria which will kill Nematode eggs" is brilliant!

My lighting is different than yours in that I have my plants in a western exposure and am using artificial lighting to supplement sunlight which they receive through the windows. I'm not nearly as close as you are with the lighting fixtures but then I'm not exclusively artificial lighting either. I'm running my artificial lighting about 18 hours a day.

Many thanks for your explanations!

Have a Merry Christmas and here's hoping your wife is baking lots of goodies for you!

Bye for now, Laura

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Of course, genetic fingerprinting, (expense aside) could be included in a published cultivar description, thus virtually ensuring that only one specific genetic individual and clones thereof would constitute that cultivar. And then anyone could have suspect plants genetically tested to see if they match the genetic fingerprint of that particular clone.

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Guest phil_faulisi

Laura,

Don't be too quick to start adding all those soil ammendments to your growing mix. People must keep in mind that Pingman is a VERY experienced grower and has adapted his methods and soil recipes over many years of trial and error and has mastered a particular process. This does not mean that if you go out and copy his recipes and or growing processes that you too...will have similar success.

One man's medicine is another man's poison. Proceed with caution and perform growth experiments using simliar plants in a variety of soil mixes under your available growing conditions. I've known many, many people to jump on the band-wagon to copy a soil recipe and or growing procedure only to have killed thier plants off even though these methods seemed to work miracles for others. As well, sometimes it's not the soil that is the culprit but the growing condiions and watering regime.

That being said, I'll steer this thread back to topic. 'My experience' for 3 of the species mentioned:

P. caerulea and P. lutea: Do best for me in an equal mix of peat, sand and chopped LFS, you should end up with a relatively sandy mix...remember the 1 cup method. The plants are grown in a shallow pot or tray top dressed with live sphagnum. Medium bright light spring/summer. Minimal water...only enough to keep the soil damp and the moss alive, warm, not hot, summer temps, mild winter dormancy with reduced water but INCREASED light. It is my understanding that during the summer the plants are found growing amidst tall grasses, some even fully exposed. During winter many of these grasses die back exposing the rosettes to brighter light and greater air circulation. Just my method.

P. planifolia: Now here is one that is the extreme opposite. I grow mine in wide pots, minimum 4 to 6 inches (10-15cm) of equal parts peat/sand, again assuring equal measurements so that you have a very sandy mix. I do not top dress with anything else. As plants mature I use pots with a surface area that will accomodate the entire rosette assuring that no leaf edges are overhanging the pot. I place the pot in a deep tray and fill with water till it covers the top of the pot and the base of the rosettes are always submerged. Full sun year round, warm spring/summer, intermediate to mildly cool winter temps, but not cold. Under these conditions the rosettes get about 6 inches (15 cm) in diameter and the deepest, darkest shimmering red. Under pure full sun I have noticed the leaves opalesce.

These are my methods for growing these species and may not work for everyone. More people should chime in with their experience so we can see where the similarities lie. Then by either adding to or eliminating specific components you can assimilate your own method/methods or at least improve on the one you are currently using.

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Well well, my hero appears. I've "stolen" and begun adopting YOUR mixes for every ping I have other than the southeastern NA pings. Yup, when I repotted I've now got them all sorted to those which are in pure LFS and those which are in what I call the Phil mix. So far everybody is happy. I did try a little experiment after I repotted my John Rizzi in pure LFS... I had an extra 'Sethos' and 'Wesser' so I potted up one of each in the pure LFS and one of each in my new "Phil" mix. All of those plants are happy in their new mixes. I really don't have more than one of each species so it is difficult to experiment a lot unless I end up with more than one of each. So I guess I'll get to see which medium my "Sethos' and 'Wesser' like best. So far, they are happy in both.

Oops, exclude the cold temperate Pings. Some of those are outside in my garage and some of those are in my refrigerator right now in a mix comparable to what I use for Sarracenia. I have no idea if they are happy or not and must wait until spring to see which ones come out of dormancy and which ones don't. Come to think of it, I've got extra P. macroceras, vulgaris, and villosa out in a bog under a frost cloth and about a foot of snow. I'll be most curious to see how all of these fare this coming new year.

Here's what prompted my question about southeastern NA pings, I just lost my pumila, my caerulea, and my lutea all within a week of transplanting them into new medium and it looks as if my planifolia, inonantha, and primuliflora are anything but happy. The ionantha and the planifolia are basically rotting down into the center of themselves and the primuliflora looks as if it dried out and I know it didn't. I did not change anything. I repotted them in the exact same mix I had gotten from Joseph a while ago and they up and died on me. Ingrates! They were doing perfectly fine and then presto whammo- deader than doornails. All of my sphagnum peat is rinsed and I let it separate out in the water. All of my sand is rinsed until the water runs clear. My gray pumice was rinsed. I nuke everything in my stove at 200F for a few hours or if I am mixing small amounts I nuke it in my microwave on high. I have just lost 3 plants and 3 more are on their way to CP heaven all because I repotted? What did I do wrong? No way this could have been bacterial given I nuked everything. This could not have been as a result of an airborn pathogen in that time frame. What happened, did I get a bad batch of gray pumice? I only had one of each of those plants and I am not happy.

Next time I can find these Pings to order, I will stop being cheap by buying only one at a time and I will buy two or three of each of those 6 SE NA Ping plants and I will start experimenting by trying them in my old mix (Pingman's) and then I will try them in your mix and growing conditions and then maybe I'll get creative and try something else. I can't believe I repotted and am going to lose a sum total of 6 plants.

I do hope other people comment. I would really appreciate it.

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Oh my gosh, I had to enlarge what was typed in a word document to get this-

Cough//bigeasy//Cough

All you need to do to see what is written in tiny letters is click the quote button, it shows the text as it was typed. :shock:

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OH, I see the HTML code too. That was rather interesting. Learn something new every day. I saw that and wondered what the heck was typed so darn small. I squinted and squinted and couldn't read it so I cut and pasted it into a word document and that was when I realized gardenofeden was commenting on Joseph's nice regia plants. Sure do wish I was more computer literate.

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Guest phil_faulisi

Laura,

I have a sneaking suspicion that the reason your pings up-and-died was because you repotted them. This is not their growing season so they would not have had ample time to set down a new and vigorous root system. You should leave them in the pots they are growing in and do your repotting in the spring when they have shown definite signs of regrowth. Although there may be growers out there who can and do repot during the winter without ill effect...the less experienced should wait until the proper time of year.

Now if your plants were showing signs of stress and you were prompted to repot because of this..that is another story.

I am honored that you like using my soil mix. But remember..I offered this idea to you as an alternative because of some problems you were having with them and it was a good mix for the larger growing Mexican species/hybrids. I'm happy to hear they are doing well. I myself do not use the same soil mix for everything. I just try to maintain essentials for good growth; ie. rapid drainage, open mix, etc. I do use pure LFS for many of the Mexicans but never in any container deeper than 2 inches. They don't need it. At least for me that is.

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So, I killed off my southeastern NA Pings all by myself. Cool. I so love destroying things I love.

The plants were not showing signs of stress before I repotted them. Repotting them all to "better their lot in life" was my own personal brainchild. Shame I got the wrong time of year.

None of my dishes are deeper than 2".

As far as all of my Mexican Pings, those were not showing any signs what so ever of stress before I re-potted them into new mixes either. They're all perfectly fine though after I re-potted them and some are even blooming again. I wanted to try a new potting mix for them because of the results Wolf got after he changed potting mixes based on your suggestions which I believed were based on sound reasoning. I believe Wolf was the one who was having problems with his Mexican Pings. Pretty much the only Ping I have had problems with to date is lusitanica. I can kill that off 20 different ways for some odd reason and if I don't kill it off... one of my cats kills it off.

Okie dokie now, time for me to go cry over spilled milk.

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Guest SWAT753

You are correct Laura, I was having much problem with my mexican pings. But after a switch in potting media to pure LFS I have had much increased results. I also have been planting them in watering trays that are quite shallow about 2'' allowing me to plant many pings together. Has worked great so far.

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