gardenofeden Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 I've just read with interest Miloslav's article on U.cornigera in CPN. Am I correct in my interpretation that the large form of reniformis = Big Sister = cornigera and the small form = Enfant Terrible = reniformis. So we now have "just" U. cornigera and U.reniformis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Not sure this is correct. I think Big Sister is just a large form of U.reniformis. U.cornigera represents plants from a specific population on the Serra dos Órgãos which are intermediate between U.reniformis and U.nelumbifolia. In my opinion U.cornigera is a hybrid, or at least of hybrid origin. Fernando Rivadavia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted March 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 Ah yes but the article offers convincing evidence that it is not a hybrid. Also, it looks suspiciously like the "large form" of reniformis which is common in cultivation in the UK. The seedlings of this large form also look like ( from memory) those of cornigera.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 Ah yes but the article offers convincing evidence that it is not a hybrid. I disagree. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodrigo Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 This discussion involving these two species of Utricularia left me quite puzzled. Stephen, you could make the article that addresses this issue so I can read it and, therefore, draw my own conclusions? Best regards, Rodrigo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted March 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 Hi Rodrigo. Thus is the problem with using smartphones, trying not to write too much which means it is not clear. I have a number of points/questions... Firstly, is U.cornigera a hybrid or a species? Opinion seems to be divided so perhaps we need some genetic work to clarify this. How to refer to it if it is a hybrid? U. X reniformis perhaps? Secondly, is the large reniformis with thick glaucous leaves common in collections in the UK (and Europe too?) actually U .cornigera/x renifomis? I suspect it is, and that very few people grow the real reniformis. Thirdly, when Barry rice and Miroslav described the reniformis cultivars Big Sister and Enfant Terrible did they actually describe cornigera and reniformis instead? ie is there actually a large form of reniformis at all or are they hybrids. Is the only real reniformis the one that produces ground leaves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted March 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 According to ICPS cornigera= "Big Sister" so that answers part of my question... Given that Big Sister and Enfant Terrible were described on the basis they were both reniformis, which they are not, then I guess that makes the cultivars invalid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RL7836 Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 The original article to define the new species (& the new one to defend it) created a lot of questions and debate. I would enjoy seeing some of those discussions play out in a public venue as I suspect that the topics would be extremely educational (truly believe this - not being snarky). Is the only real reniformis the one that produces ground leaves? I periodically reread Barry's description. I'm growing several clones of the larger form that probably fit in 'Big Sister' and three clones that are much smaller. I received one labelled as "f. courte" and another as "small form". I've grown them for several years and the foliage is virtually identical (only "f. courte" has flowered for me) but neither have the "ground leaves" that Barry mentions. Since they are a requirement for 'Enfant Terrible' and the plants are obviously not the large form -- they are apparently an additional form of U. reniformis. (?) I recently received another clone that was labelled 'Enfant Terrible' that has yet to show any tendency to form the small ground leaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 (edited) Hello everyone, I'm a bit short on time for a full length discussion right now, but I'll add a quick note here. First of all, please keep in mind that U.reniformis is a very widespread and variable taxon. "Large form" and "small form" could hardly begin to describe the variability I've seen in the wild. I think I wrote an article for CPN or other CP journal several years ago about the adaptability and diversity of U.reniformis. Anyway, as I mentioned above, U.cornigera is based on a recent collection from the Serra dos Órgãos (Rio de Janeiro state, SE Brazil) and may only represent the plants from that single population atop the Pedra do Sino at ~2100m altitude. I believe the plants that represent Big Sister have been around in cultivation for much longer and likely represent a different population from a different location. In order to find out if Big Sister is conspecific with U.cornigera, all one needs to do is look at the seeds, as Miloslav pointed out in his articles. However, to determine whether U.cornigera is truly a hybrid or species of hybrid origin, I think further studies are necessary, including maybe some DNA tests. **OR**, fellow CPers who have made the artificial crosses reniformis X nelumbifolia and nelumbifolia X reniformis may be able to solve this mystery by simply taking a closer look at the seeds. I believe both crosses produce a reniform leaf shape, but if either cross produces seeds similar to those observed for U.cornigera... then that may be the end of U.cornigera. Best wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Edited March 31, 2013 by Fernando Rivadavia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zlatokrt Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 However, to determine whether U.cornigera is truly a hybrid or species of hybrid origin, I think further studies are necessary, including maybe some DNA tests. **OR**, fellow CPers who have made the artificial crosses reniformis X nelumbifolia and nelumbifolia X reniformis may be able to solve this mystery by simply taking a closer look at the seeds. I believe both crosses produce a reniform leaf shape, but if either cross produces seeds similar to those observed for U.cornigera... then that may be the end of U.cornigera. Well, but dr. Studnicka actually did it. He made artificial crosses as you suggested. I must admit, that he did not compare seeds, but the very young seedlings, but he found clear differences between the seedling of U. cornigera and the hybrids. The photos show it very nicely. I was quite sceptical after the first description, but now U. cornigera looks convicing as a separate species for me. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Ah, of course, I wasn't thinking straight yesterday. I meant "seedlings" not seeds. And regarding the crosses, we need to look at the **F2** generation, not the F1. Seedlings of F1 will most likely resemble morphologically those of the mother plant and develop similarly too. Best wishes, Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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