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Cephalotus "Klaus Keller", "Rudi Fuerst", "Günter Eitz" or "Harald Weinert" ?

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Cephalotus " True Giant", C. "Giant Klaus Keller",  C. "Giant Rudi Fuerst", C. "Giant Günter Eitz",  C."Giant Harald Weinert"  or when the madness will stop?

Which one is the originator of this clone and how should one and the same plant ( clone)  be named?

I don't know wether the people are all alive but Klaus Keller is defenitely is,  even however he is member of CPUK forum, so probably he will get part in this thread with more info....

Would the name after the growers help to all CPs community or this is just fortune and glory?

  PA060006_zpss8n9ziba.jpg

 

Edited by dimitar
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just for Klaus Keller you can find one topic about it here

 

in 2009....it's not really a recent clone but you can read the old name...

Cephalotus follicularis "Klaus Keller true giant" ex harald weiner old clone[A.Amici]

so it's seems klaus keller and harald weiner are the same........

But I stop my investigation here ;o)

 

best regards

Fabrice

 

 

 

 

 

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Harald Weinert is the creator of this clone. Klaus Keller has it from Rudi Fürst. Rudi Fürst has it from Günter Eitz and he has bought it in the 80s from Harald Weinert in Hameln.

Best regards

Jörn

Edited by Bidde
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This is the sort of mess you get in when you name a clone from the grower you obtained it from.  As someone who did not know this clones history, how would one be expected to know that it is one and the same?

In my opinion, if the clone is worthy of a name then it should be possible to describe it. If it's not possible to describe the clone in a way that it could be identified then it is questionable as to whether it should be named. The description should be of the name assigned to it, which stays with it and doesn't change with the owner. Without such then how is it possible to ascertain that one has the clone?

I believe that 'Hummer's Giant' is a good example on how not to describe a clone, as I defy anyone to ascertain for certain that they have the genuine clone from the description.

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This kind of mess seems to be normal with collectors. I met this situation first with a sarracenia collector. He had several named clones from Mr. King. The moment they went into in his greenhouse they got a new ID to fit in his system. The new identification was of course in his book with the old name and number added to it.

After the third owner some left out some of the data and alas a new clone was born.

This occurs stupid to me, but it seems to be in practice by quite a lot of growers.

Another problem is that clonal propagation has not very seldom variation in the resulting plants. So even under the same conditions the resulting plants will not look the same.

Not all differences are seen at once. With Saintpaulia I propagated last year out of ten leafs one was a mutation with a different flower and leaf colour.

Or stay with Cepahlotus. Three leafs of the same size from one Cepahlotus in the same pot show very different growth. When I put them apart last winter, one had several adult traps and no small ones, one a lot of very tiny traps and one took another year to grow underground as a rhizome until it appeared with some small traps and a leaf late this summer.

The growth and colour is still different. now. But they are now in two pots side by side. My mountains. One is alone and the others in one pot.

I dont think they will look the same in another year.

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Another example is this new giant of Dr. Eberhard König. Lol The plant looks exactly like the giant od Harald Weinert. Ive asked a lot of people and all say that König only has one clone and this is no giant. I think its the giant of Weinert under another name also.

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It is not astonishing at all, that there are sometimes plants from the same clone propagated to show desired features.

So a normal clone might turn into a Giant after clonal propagation. Quite often new shoots do this in many other plants, just naturally in the wild. Some will out outcompete their mother plant, some not. It happens all the time. But collectors are a strange people....

It would not surprise me,  that Cephalotus is especially prone to changes like this. So Mr. König had one clonal propagated descendant which turned out Giant.

What should he do, call it typical? Maybe most keep this feature under good conditions. Probably most will not, like many others do just change back to normal.

.

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partisangardener,

I'm not sure if u understand the meaning of this thread reading your two posts above ? We discuss naming the plants after the growers and would this help...do u understand this?

For example, what do u think  if I get Cephalotus " True Giant "  from you and then I name it C. "Giant Partisangardener" , would this help to CPs community and does it make the plant different?

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I think that there are too much "clones with a name", that are used to sell to an higer price normal plants... I think better people who writes "cephalotus seed grown 1, 2, 3, 4....." when the plants have not very particular charateristics... If for me is a problem that there are too many clones with a name, of course it is a bigger problem when a single clone has 2, 3 or more names... It makes a great confusion and offer to betrayers a better possibility to "play with names" and create a bigger number of "fakes"... I think so;-)

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I understand it quite well. Such practice would help to sell the clones to collectors. Another must have, which they will buy readily.

But on the other hand if a normal clone gets suddenly giant, because of some unknown reason what will I do. Just keep it till it dies? If I give it to somebody it will be named giant along the way, may be named after me or any other guy in the line.

This is my hobby and I personally have not sold plants, whatever feature or rarity they might have. Some people do this professional and they have to sell them. Most do this I hope for a reasonable price to make their living. But there are always the few, which can’t get enough and we all have to live with it.

The only little help is, to keep our longing under control and just don’t buy every new name in the market. Threads like this will solve many problems of the origin of many varieties, but information gets always lost after some time and we find old friends again under a new name.

 

 

If I loose a sticker or just change it by mistake and because I am a good guy name it typical, give it to somebody and he will have after two years giant pitchers, the chance it will be named giant is not that small. ;) To avoid this I had to throw it in a bin, or better freeze it before. I can’t do that and I doubt that somebody else would.

I am glad this special plant you mentioned has at the moment a clear history. I doubt it will stay that way.

Cherishing a healthy plant, which shows always new beautiful aspects, while it is thriving is just enough for me.

 

Edited by partisangardener

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On 25.10.2016 г. at 0:10 PM, partisangardener said:

I am glad this special plant you mentioned has at the moment a clear history. I doubt it will stay that way.

 

I agree. Recently I saw allegedly famous German grower Christian Klein on facebook to name the same clone as :  "Giant ( Weiner ) Klaus Keller clone " . And he also recognized 2 different Wilhelma clones... BG Wilhelma and "different" BG Wilhelma (BG Mainz) clone...it seems the German growers like renaming the names... or name one and the same clone with 2 different names... :)

 

 

Edited by dimitar

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Hi Dimitar ,

I have seen your post here with my pics and think there is something that should be said about your post:

1. The so called true Giant ( from Klaus Keller) is as far as I know coming from Harald Weiner ( not Weinert ) who was the first in Germany who did grow and sell this clone, he told me that this clone is coming from a Botanical Garden in Sidney he did think that it is possibly a triploid clone. This was in the 80s .This clone can easily be seperated from others by its ultraslow growth and its extremely big traps.but needs a long time to show these.

2. On my post there are not 2 different Bg Wilhelma clones, and I even did not write this. Its only 2 different looking plants from of the same clone. The clones from Wilhelma and Bg Mainz are the same and have the same origin. Maybe there are also others but my plants are def. same.

3. You should be a bit more careful when you write such things as, for example,that German growers like to rename the same their plants with different names or creating new ones. For me this has a very bad taste and I really do not like to read this.

4. I do not know how many years of Cp experience you may have,I for myself can look back on 40 years of collecting plants now. And believe me, I do not need to replace any name by another. But I think it is cominig with time and is a kind of name evolution. The people tend to name a plant after the source they got it from, and just this results in different names at the end. Now we have a lot new clones of cephalotus and most  of them are not that unique, that you can clearly seperate them. That does not make it easier. Also many plants are sold on Ebay with many phantastic names, and most of them are grown in a Dutch nursery on the same table  ....

5. I really recognize the work you do to find out the real name and source  of any clone, but at least you will fail .... You can see this, for example, that most people here cannot even remember Harald Weiner, who has had the first bigger collection in Europe and was the first seller, where you could get rare plants in the past.

Chris

 

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Christian Klein said:

[...]But I think it is cominig with time and is a kind of name evolution. The people tend to name a plant after the source they got it from, and just this results in different names at the end.[...]

This for me is a problem. Potentially someone could end up with multiples of the same clone in their collection, all under different names, but not realising they are the same. I personally think it is bad practice to name a plant after whom it was obtained from and especially so if the plant previously had a different name. Sceptics will believe that the naming or renaming is done in order to increase worth, as there are some collector who simply want to collect every named clone and will pay good money for a 'new' clone that they may already have or is simply a Dutch nursery clone with a pet name.

There is an increasing tendency to give pet names to clones irrespective of whether they have genuine distinguishable characteristics, or not. Even the cultivar process does not stop this as it does not require the supposed distinguishing characteristics to be verified.

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Hi Christian,

1. Good info and thanks. Then the right name should be Cephalotus clone from Botanical Garden in Sidney..... since Harald Weiner ( not WeinerT ) is not the originator of this clone......, not Klaus Keller, True Giant, C. "Giant Rudi Fuerst", C. "Giant Günter Eitz"  etc....

2. As u wrote the names under your Wilhelma plants this eaxactly means 2 different clones.

3  Sorry, not me but you should be very careful when writting the names because as u wrote under your pic:  "Giant ( Weiner ) Klaus Keller clone " means exactly the same - renaming the plant and different clone......

For example: If I get this clone from you and following your style I have to name it - "Giant ( Weiner ) Klaus Keller clone ( Christian Klein ) clone" ?  Or better directly Giant Christian Klein clone?

4. if someone get it from me he should name it Giant Dimitar.......this is your logic in point 4....

5. Only time will tell...

 

So, please think about all this again since u have 40 years experience collecting plants.

 

Dimitar

 

 

 

 

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The creator of a clone is only the person who grows it from seeds. So in this case the bot. garden of Sidney would be the owner of this clone  and not Harald Weiner. These are interesting news i think.

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Even if the leaf or plant was taken from nature, shouldn't it be named after the original source and not renamed as it passes from person to person?

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You are right. But if it is a sport or some epigenetic effect all the other of the same name wont show the feature.

I would recommend, to take the name from the first discovery of a new feature and keep a good look at all the plants deriving from it. Nobody knows how common Sports or epigenetic effects are with Cepalotus. I suspect that most named ones are not as stabile as we would all like them to be.

Sports are mutations which appear without generative propagation. Very common with in vitro propagation, but f.e.many trees and perennial plants have it regularly.

Edited by partisangardener

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If there is potential for sports or epigenetics in Cephalotus then it would bring into question the stability of cultiivars too.

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3 hours ago, partisangardener said:

I suspect that most named ones are not as stabile as we would all like them to be.

 

I wouldn't bet on it... how many different named clones do u grow, so u can make such conclusions?

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I don't really think Christian is trying to give it a different name, he is just putting the name of the grower where he got this from as pretty much everyone does with a growlist.

If i buy a C. follicularis from christian I will label it as: C. follicularis (Christian Klein). If you put something in parenthes it does not mean you are giving a new name. So why do you see this as giving a new name?

By the way, if I look at some peoples growlist I see things such as: C. follicularis 'Location A'. Why are those people giving a location clone a cultivar name?

Edited by Killian

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28 minutes ago, Killian said:

So why do you see this as giving a new name?

 

I recommend u to reread the whole thread from my first post to the last one again and I'm sure u will answer yourself without asking me...

28 minutes ago, Killian said:

By the way, if I look at some peoples growlist I see things such as: C. follicularis 'Location A'. Why are those people giving a location clone a cultivar name?

Why you don't ask these people straight?

 

Edited by dimitar
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1 hour ago, Killian said:

If i buy a C. follicularis from christian I will label it as: C. follicularis (Christian Klein). If you put something in parenthes it does not mean you are giving a new name. So why do you see this as giving a new name?

I do not necessarily see putting the growers name in parentheses an issue, however these can end up becoming a 'named clone', i.e. Cephalotus Phil Mann etc.

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i'll write mine like this   caphalotus (phil mann) given to me by Stephen Morley aka Gardenofeden grown from leaf cuttings in a sheffield greenhouse:laugh:

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