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David Ahrens

Brexit or stay in, consequences for our plants

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Phil, you have no way of knowing whether the EU has helped our economy or not, and neither do I. But it's doubtful we would be doing as well as we are without it.

 

Correct, it is impossible to know for sure what would have happened. The same applies to the future, so you can't say " it's doubtful ", you can say YOU doubt we'd do as well - but others can say with just as much validity, that we would probably do as well, if not better, outside the EU.

 

 

As to choosing which immigrants can come, where do you think a great proportion of our engineers, doctors, dentists and other professionals come from now?

 Again, no one is suggesting that 'SOME' of the migrants coming from Europe aren't a benefit to this Country. But equally, 'SOME' are of no benefit and are actually a drain on our limited resources. The issue is about a CHOICE! Outside the EU we can choose who we want. Whether they are from Europe, India, America, China ........ But at the moment we have no Choice. Europe tells us that we must accept anyone and everyone from Europe who wants to come here. If everyone in Europe decided to come here next month, we could do nothing about it! Obviously they won't - BUT they could.

 

The 'in campaign' are deliberately distorting the views of the 'out' side. It isn't an all or nothing issue - merely one of CHOICE. Britain should be the one to choose, who comes in, how OUR money is spent, what OUR laws are.

Are our Politicians perfect - NO, but at least they are elected by US. If we don't like what they are doing, the country can elect to take a different direction a few years later. With Europe we have NO choice. Are the French, German, Italian and all other European Politicians going to make decisions just because it is best for Britain? Certainly not. But our Government can.

 

Europe is too big and diverse, with different values and factors acting upon their economies, for a 'one size fits all' approach - that can only result in two options, either it is positive for some and negative for others, or of no real use to anyone. But it can never provide a perfect situation for ALL countries.

Decisions that have to be approved by everyone are by default, never the best ones, just watered down versions.

 

As others have already said, Europe is already falling apart - it was always doomed to failure, big 'empires' always do (eventually). Many other European Governments know that their own citizens are also uneasy about the directions the EU has taken and is taking. They are VERY WORRIED, because they know if Britain leaves, their own citizens will want out also. That is why they are so desperate for us to stay.

 

No one knows for sure exactly what the future hold is we leave (nor if we stay), but lets steer our own ship, rather than have a dozen different captains from different boats all trying to do it for us!

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As to choosing which immigrants can come, where do you think a great proportion of our engineers, doctors, dentists and other professionals come from now?

No disrespect to anyone of any race or nationality, but where do you think we got our professionals from before we went into the EU? I don't seem to remember a shortage of them when I were a lad - long time ago I admit, but within living memory!

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Back on topic,      Why not grow our own plants?    and supply our market?

Well, if we leave, I reckon we'll see a rise in UK-grown plants. I don't have a problem with that.

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If we leave the lying toad Osboune has said he will put 2p on income tax and and reduce payments to the NHS etc

So he now has a 60 strong conservatives say they will not back the cuts. They are running scared

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He may well have to, leaving will hurt our economy for at least ten years. As much as some people thinks profits are a bad thing, its profits that pay for the NHS, social welfare and our pensions.

Professionals can easily be brought in now from outside the EU, just needs a sponsored work visa, we also need cheap labour from Europe to fill the labour market and do jobs that Brits are too spoiler to want to do.

We have an aging population that needs to be paid for and that requires an influx of young people. Immigrants are a net contributor to the economy.

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He may well have to, leaving will hurt our economy for at least ten years. As much as some people thinks profits are a bad thing, its profits that pay for the NHS, social welfare and our pensions.

Professionals can easily be brought in now from outside the EU, just needs a sponsored work visa, we also need cheap labour from Europe to fill the labour market and do jobs that Brits are too spoiler to want to do.

We have an aging population that needs to be paid for and that requires an influx of young people. Immigrants are a net contributor to the economy.

I don't have any disagreement with your statement but the problem is we have no power to stop excess immigration

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Yeh, unbelievable - talk about blackmail.

Vote as I tell you or I'll put your taxes up!! They must be really scared.

 

I'm sorry, but there is no CERTANTY that our economy will be adversely affected by leaving. No one can say what the future holds. Economic forecasts are notoriously inaccurate!

 

I really hope this blackmail tactic back fires on him.

Until now, I didn't agree with him, but I had no negative feelings about him.

How that has changed!

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 Immigrants are a net contributor to the economy.

They are a direct contributor to our rapidly increasing population. Resulting in the every increasing loss of our Countryside.

Adding to the pressures on our NHS, Schools, Housing, Roads (they will mostly be driving additional cars). Their children will also add even further to those same pressures and growing up in this country, they will have the same attitudes as other kids. It's also a fact most of these immigrants tend to come from countries where it is the norm to have more children than families here.

 

We are a small Island, yet have more people per land area than many others and this is only getting worse.

Thank God I won't be here to see how bad it is by the end of this Century.

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Just a though but if we wasn't already in would we want to join now

Do you know, that's about the most sensible comment I've heard anyone make on the subject so far!

 

When you put it that way, there's no question! Why on earth would we want to go in?

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Adding to the pressures on our NHS, Schools, Housing, Roads (they will mostly be driving additional cars)

 

​Sound like quite wealthy immigrants to me with all those cars Phil! 

 

​Immigration works when tax receipts more than cover the cost of services. Councils love to give planning permission to new developments because of the additional tax receipts. But all immigrants (or EU migrants more correctly) are automatically tarnished with the same brush. A Spanish doctor is not the same as a poor Albanian who sends his wages back his family at home.

 

It's also worth remembering that the birthrate was 1.6 a few years ago. It's now up to 1.9, so we actually needed some help to get near to treading water. You could argue that migration has caused birth rates to jump by 0.4, but that is perceived as a bad thing.

 

We're not building enough houses, which is something everyone agrees on. But rather than sorting that (and bear in mind 97% of the country's land surface is not built on AT ALL), the idea seems to be to block anyone from coming in and sitting on our hands as if that will fix a lot of perceived problems.

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The idea is to do SOMETHING, not block anyone, but to pick who we want to come into our country.

 

Voting to stop in,is doing nothing.  People all always afraid of change or the unknown.

WE have a chance to really say how we feel about this and the government will have to take notice and any future government.

 

Don't be frightened by the lies,vote how you really feel and lets take our country back from the eurocrats and be free.

 

Its what our grandfathers fought for,     The freedom to decide for ourselves.

we might even get to be able to send plants legally by royal mail.

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lets take our country back from the eurocrats and be free.

 

Its what our grandfathers fought for,     The freedom to decide for ourselves.

Ooh, I have images of Tim Brooke-Taylor Making such a rousing speech, with the strains of Land Of Hope And Glory in the background!

 

For those of you who haven't a clue what I'm on about (which is usually pretty much everyone), watch some episodes of the Goodies, and you'll see!

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We're not building enough houses, which is something everyone agrees on.

That is quite a statement - to claim that EVERYONE agrees on something.

I certainly don't.

The trouble is actually too many people and too many second homes. Not a lack of house building.

 

The big trouble is that 'western' economies are geared up to ever increasing consumption.

It's not enough for companies to make a profit on their trading. They have to make increased profits year on year, or they are considered failing.

The 'poverty' line is constantly moved - again reflecting ever greater consumption.

 

 

GREED is good, but there is something wrong with you if you don't consume vast amounts of stuff.

Consuming less is considered a recession and bad.

 

It keeps being repeated that we need more young people, to pay for an aging population. This is a very selfish opinion and a model which in the long run is doomed to failure.

Those young people will eventually be the old, requiring an even greater number of young people to support them and so on, until there is no space left. But by then the current elderly population will be gone and so they don't care - leave that problem for others to deal with!

 

What it actually needs is a massive decline in population numbers, resulting in possible hardship for a current elderly population, but then less dependants (and a better life) for future generations.

But with a self centred population, that is unlikely to happen.

With the current models for Western society and economics, the world is doomed.

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That is quite a statement - to claim that EVERYONE agrees on something.

I certainly don't.

The trouble is actually too many people and too many second homes. Not a lack of house building.

Add in the increasing number of people who don't get married, but want their own house. 

 

GREED is good

Why is greed good? What's wrong with a bit of self-restraint? 

 

What it actually needs is a massive decline in population numbers

Yeah, let's start shooting people! Any volunteers?

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Sorry, by everyone I meant the political parties (even the Greens). But house building isn't necessarily new buildings - there are a hell of a lot of derelict buildings and long council waiting lists.

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Just a though but if we wasn't already in would we want to join now

 

not a bloody chance,once Spain,and Italy got the same way as Greece and go cap in hand to the IMF the whole house of cards will start tumbling down.

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not a bloody chance,once Spain,and Italy got the same way as Greece and go cap in hand to the IMF the whole house of cards will start tumbling down.

Maybe Portugal and Ireland not far behind

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That is quite a statement - to claim that EVERYONE agrees on something.

I certainly don't.

The trouble is actually too many people and too many second homes. Not a lack of house building.

 

The big trouble is that 'western' economies are geared up to ever increasing consumption.

It's not enough for companies to make a profit on their trading. They have to make increased profits year on year, or they are considered failing.

The 'poverty' line is constantly moved - again reflecting ever greater consumption.

 

 

GREED is good, but there is something wrong with you if you don't consume vast amounts of stuff.

Consuming less is considered a recession and bad.

 

It keeps being repeated that we need more young people, to pay for an aging population. This is a very selfish opinion and a model which in the long run is doomed to failure.

Those young people will eventually be the old, requiring an even greater number of young people to support them and so on, until there is no space left. But by then the current elderly population will be gone and so they don't care - leave that problem for others to deal with!

 

What it actually needs is a massive decline in population numbers, resulting in possible hardship for a current elderly population, but then less dependants (and a better life) for future generations.

But with a self centred population, that is unlikely to happen.

With the current models for Western society and economics, the world is doomed.

 

you hit the nail on the head there Phil. You summed up beautfully the problem with our society and how it will even come crashing down. continuous growth is unsustainable as we have limited resources and space. The logical solution is stability in the population consuming a fixed amount of resources and recycling them. but our society is geared towards consuming more and more and constantly growing. I liken the human population to a bacterial culture growing in a petri dish with finite resources, space and no predators, and anyone  with a basic knowledge of biology can predict the outcome

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you hit the nail on the head there Phil. You summed up beautfully the problem with our society and how it will even come crashing down. continuous growth is unsustainable as we have limited resources and space. The logical solution is stability in the population consuming a fixed amount of resources and recycling them. but our society is geared towards consuming more and more and constantly growing. I liken the human population to a bacterial culture growing in a petri dish with finite resources, space and no predators, and anyone  with a basic knowledge of biology can predict the outcome

A bleak but realistic assessment.

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Coming from Switzerland, let me tell you all, my British friends, that I would not leave Europe if I were in... It is just hellish to send material abroad or bring some in when living in an ISLAND like Switzerland... green labels, petty lies, hiding a pot or two when crossing the border from Germany or France... Wish you to make the best possible choice for you guys... :-)

 

OL

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Coming from Switzerland, let me tell you all, my British friends, that I would not leave Europe if I were in... It is just hellish to send material abroad or bring some in when living in an ISLAND like Switzerland... green labels, petty lies, hiding a pot or two when crossing the border from Germany or France... Wish you to make the best possible choice for you guys... :-)

No disrespect, but I'm old enough to remember life before the EU, and it wasn't that bad. Don't know if things are different in Switzerland, or if laws have changed overall, but we managed quite happily.

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It's getting close now just 36 hours till we can vote hearing from the pundits

Looking like its 50/50 and the undecided will have the casting votes.

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