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 Anyway, the squat is stable, it has been propagated by leaves etc, and the pitchers are always that shape, even when they form as you can see in the pictures they look different shape.  

 

 

I tend to agree with you and I can confirm the same here in my conditions.

Even the small juvenile pitchers of Cephalotus "Squat" look like " bullet " wider and flatter and they are quite different in shape.

I found C. " Squat " that it is one of the slowliest growing clone that I have ever had. It is quite fussy clone and not so easy to be propagated with leaves cuttings. The propagated plants via leaves cuttings under my conditions grow like " snail"  compared with other clones...

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Nothing personal, but I feel I must address some of these points.

 

No one is saying mutations Don't occur in vegetative propagation, but they are not as common as you seen to be implying.

 

Well, in contrast to what pulsar have written I could give an example from my own experience, when from a totally regular Dionaea muscipula I propagated by a leaf cutting a form with constantly erected leafs, which remained stable for another 8 years and about a 30 plants or so. When suddenly a backward mutation appeared and in a clump of such mutants, a regular one appeared from a division of the mutated form. :) I just wish I have made photos when they were still connected one to another. That would be a nice photo. :/

 

Whilst it is possible that this one copy mutated, there are other possibilities. Perhaps your original plant was itself the result of a mutation and just reverted back (which is known to happen). But also, can you be 100% certain that your 'mutation' wasn't just a stray seed which germinated within the plant? Perhaps it looked different because it was actually a different plant. I doubt I'd notice a seed germinating and growing within one of my VFTs, until it looked different.

 

 

 

I can also give another interesting example, which caught my attention recently. It is about pale coloured Cephalotus German Giant. As I read the topic, I got more and more interested in ideas posted there. I seriously recommend to read it. Here is a link: http://www.insektenfang.com/ipforum/topic/5124-cephalotus-alba-clone/

 

This just shows a clone which sometimes produces pale pitchers. It also mentions a seedling from the plant which was very pale. There is nothing about a mutated plant always being pale coming from German Giant..

 

 

But we should NOT treat it as ideal and compare different families, genus, species or even clones, like they should have same repeatability percentage.

 

But this is what you are doing. You use your 'possible' experience with VFTs as evidence for something in Cephalotus.

I am not aware of any examples of 'sports'/mutated plants, having arisen from a cephalotus. If any have been reported then please post here. Given that most Ceph have been propagated vegetively, if they were prone to this mutation then some would have been reported by now.

 

So, is mutation possible from vegetative propagation - Yes.

But is it a likely explanation for why several different people aren't getting the same dark colour in their EB's - sudden mutation in several different leaf propagated plants -

Very unlikely.

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Thank you Marcus for your explanation. I have less explaining now. :)

 

Dimitar, it does not really matter how slow the plant is growing, if it seems to be different, stable and still possible to propagate.

 

Phill, regarding your answer. I was well aware when I was giving an example of my Dionaea muscipula mutation. Since I gave it in contrast to pulsar's dahlia example, just and only. That is also why I later stated that we should not compare with such ease, different groups of plants.  Because if we did, than my Dionaea example, should be taken in a straight line to Cephalotus mutations. Although, they (other plants and their genetics) can give us some ideas we would never or rarely think of. I hope you now understand what I meant?

 

There is not a smallest chance for a random seedling to appear between my Dionaea clone. Simple. Till this year I was not allowing not even a single Dionaea to even open a flower. I had no seeds of my own or any other Dionaea plants. This year, for the first time I allowed my plants to flower and have seeds. The mutation regression appeared long before the first flower even opened. Those plants were always separated, from other green ones with red ones, and with proper distance to those second ones. Etc. etc.

 

In the topic I gave a link to, in post #7, user Alvise:

 

 

A seedling of my old german giant started to produce white pitchers with red hat (in the  pitchers) and white spotted in the young ones.
I've notice that mi mother plant sometimes have produced white pitchers, and maybe (my opinion) this can be a recessive gene transmitted by the german giant clone...
Will be interesting know if someone have registered white exposed pitchers in german giant clone...

 

Than a photo of a mother plant is  showed. On the label I can clearly read "Cephalotus (not sure what) Giant."

Maybe we understand things differently, but at least for me that much of the conversation is made about a "German Giant". Plus most of the German Giant's I have seen, were normally coloured. What would we call a pale form within it as not a mutation? Because what we see is an effect of a some mutation. Sometimes small mutation can lead to huge difference and opposite, a huge mutation, can lead to little difference. Is there anyone knowing anything more about Cephalotus genetics?

 

Now I will go further than ever in my thoughts and make form theory (maybe an ugly one): "Cephalotus artificially selected, distinct phenotype represents a pool of genes, which are more prone to mutation, than pool of genes of plants which are phenotypically similar and are considered as "regular". Such pool of genes of distinct phenotype is prone to mutations, which than spread and/or mutate forward more easily through generative, than vegetative propagation." I would call it genetic

 

Examples which made me think so, are mentioned earlier. How I see it, is that genetic extremities fluctuate more than the genetic universality. I think of Cephalotus here.

 

I will one day like to test this theory in a properly made experiment. To do that, I will just need to have quite a few distinct clones/cultivars, and some different genetically, so called "regular" Cephalotus. I would need to have those first ones, in larger quantity, than one individual. By selecting those visibly different ones from that cloud of similarity, I will further propagate both groups vegetatively and generatively by cross and self pollination within the tested groups. Plants kept in identical growing conditions, should than mostly show their genetic difference in such conditions, rather than be an result of them. The final result will tell if my theory is right or a total nonsense. :) Of course it will take quite some time, space AND money to do that. Till I have results, anyone can feel free to think of me as crazy. ;-)

 

Just one thing more totally separate to everything above. I just have a feeling that some Dionaea clones are more prone to create new clones with in vitro methods, than some other ones. That could be more or less confirmed or denied from simple observation right now, since that plant is propagated like crazy nowadays with the use of in vitro methods. :)

 

I think that everyone is now fed up with me and my extensive writing. I am sorry, that is how my thinking process looks like... :/

Edited by Cephalotus

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Good to see the banana clone is doing well.

Slightly off topic,but still relevant.

Is the callus thing why spotty doesn't always come true from vegative propagation and why it needs to divide naturally.

Is this also how "sports" occur in the plant world.

The rapid growth of cells from a cutting of a cutting etc could explain some colour loss in EB.Where as a cutting from the original EB would be nearer the original.

ada

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 Plus most of the German Giant's I have seen, were normally coloured.

 

 Both plants bellow originate from Bochum Botanical Garden in Germany. Plants with names" True Giant", "German Giant", "Munich Giant" etc...

Would it be possible to tell me which of those is  C. "German Giant" ?

 

10395174_712265368811039_225171359417478

 

And clone with more squatish shape

 

10570552_707072039330372_420669472144170

 

 

10494615_707072035997039_331518651588506

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Dimi

Going on abit from the squat clone - do you or have you seen the same from cephalotus T. rex? I've not seen any further info since the registration

Matt

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Good to see the banana clone is doing well.

Slightly off topic,but still relevant.

Is the callus thing why spotty doesn't always come true from vegative propagation and why it needs to divide naturally.

Is this also how "sports" occur in the plant world.

The rapid growth of cells from a cutting of a cutting etc could explain some colour loss in EB.Where as a cutting from the original EB would be nearer the original.

ada

 

 

Spotting in plants, when it is not due to a virus, can be due to mutations in some cells but not others, resulting in a mosaic pattern.  When you have a possible increase in mutations, you have a possible increase in the chance of a back mutation, that is that the mutation that causes the different appearence (the spots) gets corrected (or simply another error that cancels the effect).  So yes, it is better to take naturally produced divisions of the rhizome than leaf cuttings of such plants. 

 

Sports may also occur in one part of the plant and not others due to similiar effects, which is why they may occur in flowers but not be passed on in cuttings.  I currently have a Cyclamen with white flowers that is from seed of a pink flowered plant, which has some flowers with a pink line in one petal.  The fact that this occuring in more than one flower may mean that it can be passed on from other tissue on that side of the plant.  However, from memory, if it only occurs in one flower then you need to try to obtain affected cells from the flower to grow a callus that may pass on the trait. 

 

Whenever there is cell division, there is the chance of a mutation.  When there is rapid cell division, there is more chance of the error corrrection mechanisms failing in some area.  Much of the DNA that is termed "non-coding" is involved in the error checking process and thus it seems that organisms which have less "non-coding" DNA are more likely to accumulate errors.

 

There is, I supposed, some chance that this may explain why some EB cuttings are not as colourful as expected.

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 do you or have you seen the same from cephalotus T. rex? I've not seen any further info since the registration

 

No Matt,  I don't know anything about that cultivar, neither I have seen more info or other pics from that what exists in ICPS about it. As far as I know it is not out for sale in Oz nor anyone else has seen this plant there.

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