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Eden Black Pictures

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Split from this thread: http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=53783&

 

Sonja is quite correct... Hotmail had helpfully sorted it into my 'Junk' folder!

 

Here is the photo:

 

gallery_8721_835_193141.jpg

 

I suspect that the naysayers will point out that it is not 'black' but it is a discussion that has been, err 'discussed', here before.

Cheers,

Steve

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Hello Steve,

thanks for posting my pic here! The pitcher is not really black of course,but it´s cleary more dark than the one of the regular clone,so I´m expecting a black pitcher in winter,when temperatures drop to nearly frosts.

As we all know low temps will increase the dark colour.

Edited by lilacina
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 I haven't seen  pictures that match the cultivar description from growers !,  I still don’t get why and what is so special about this plant ?  To me look like most other Cephalotus  -  a standard Cephalotus including all my own and that is very common looking through out the wild populations, is  the term artistic license  taking a term to far !!  Is it the the high improbability of it that some one mite get a very dark colour from it , if they buy it for a crazy price,  so far no one that has shown a EB plant there growing has had a Black colour, is that not right ? if there is please post your pictures, please.
 I have though seen plants from others that are not EB and they have very dark colour from giving that plant some specialized lighting and micro climate conditions, (or even perhaps just very good natural sun light at the right times ), which is probably the way to go with any Cephalotus, expect maybe  Cephalotus French Mans Bay plant that dose not colour even in the wild except for a reddish colour.
 

Cephalotus is a single specie like VFT ,and has no other close relative to hybridize with to make the realy significant hybrid changes people so desperately look for. Sure you will get colour , pitcher size , slight deformities or variations yes , no denying that,  but the basic Cephalotus plant will always be there , you cant not naturally change it from its parent form or general shape  -   unlike Neps, Sarras, Pings ect… that have lots of different specie in the family.  Cephalotus has none of these to make the significant changes that people seek  and most Cephalotus are subject to season and climate change in there growth habits as well ,making a stable uniform plant very difficult to stay stable 100% in different climates and  this is even evident in wild populations.  possibly a few exceptions as always.

 

If there is a Cephalotus that looks like a true cross like N. ventricosa x truncata for example , please post a photo.
 I have been growing  Cephalotus since I was 24 years old & now nearly 60 , and only ever seen a Cephalotus as a Cephalotus with some nice variation in colour ,pitcher size and skin textures and so on , but it still remains the basic Cepalotus pitcher plant .

 just my opinion .

Edited by snapperhead51
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To be honest, I think I have seen more 'typical' coloured 'Eden Black's than I have dark coloured. To me, it looks like it needs very specific growing conditions to realise the dark colouration.

 

Under certain conditions I can get most of my Cephalotus to a dark colouration, such as the one in my avatar, but if I grew the same plant under my normal conditions it would get a more 'typical' colour.

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Well,  for me all that shows how Cephalotus was registered as cultivar status without thinking is it worth that or not and if the phenotype persists in other growers hands before registering. If the color, because the plant was registered only for its color and nothing else will be repeated in different conditions in different growers etc…. unfortunately not.

 

After Cephalotus is registered as ‘cultivar’ it should be distinct, uniform and stable. To be distinct, it must have characteristics that easily distinguish it from any other known cultivar. To be uniform and stable, the cultivar must retain these characteristics under repeated propagation in any and in different conditions with no exception.

However, undoubted fact is that the Cephalotus itself can not do this in different climates and conditions because the color is always unstable under different conditions in different growers and all that is once again proved with C. Eden Black.

So the question is would C. Eden Black deserve cultivar status or not?

 

In other hand the problem is that people don’t read the description of C. Eden Black and indeed just the name Eden Black alone  makes people dream and fantasize that they will get definitely black color as its name hints.

 

Anyway, many other plants like C. Big Boy, C. Gull Rock , Thomas Carrow clone,  C. German Giant, various regular plants and probably many others can get easily dark brown color but as I said above, the color doesn't mean anything, because its variability  throughout the year and surely it will differ in different growers under different conditions. Of course that doesn't make them special, unique and deserving cultivar status only because the color. 

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I normally dont respond to these threads, and prefer people to make their own minds up from first hand experience....

however....

 

 I haven't seen  pictures that match the cultivar description from growers !, 

 

well you obviously dont come on the forum much! there are several posted or linked on this forum

 

all mine for starters:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157622790593311/

 

ada

http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=52694&hl=black

 

Cedric in this post

http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=53463&hl=%2Beden+%2Bblack#entry358956

 

Pete

http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=48887&hl=%2Beden+%2Bblack

 

 

and of course "son of Eden Black" (not strictly Eden Black of course...

http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=42499&hl=

 

not as many as I would like of course!

 

 

 

  so far no one that has shown a EB plant there growing has had a Black colour, is that not right ?
 ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE BLACK!!!!  Black does not exist in the plant kingdom! The name ALLUDES to a darker-than-normal-colour!  In my garden for example I grow Agastache 'Black Adder', Aeonium 'Swartkop', Buddleia 'Black Knight', Penstemon 'Blackbird', Heuchera 'Obsidian'… none of these are black, they are a mixture of blues, browns and purples.

 

 

 

 I have though seen plants from others that are not EB and they have very dark colour from giving that plant some specialized lighting and micro climate conditions
 

if you blast any normal Ceph plant with LED or high intensity lights you can get good colour, but this will not last in average greenhouse conditions.  I don't use supplementary lighting, and the sun levels in Yorkshire are not that good..

 

 

 

 (or even perhaps just very good natural sun light at the right times ), which is probably the way to go with any Cephalotus, expect maybe  Cephalotus French Mans Bay plant that dose not colour even in the wild except for a reddish colour.[

agreed, natural sunlight is the best way, and of course colour (and size) is relative in Cephalotus, you have to grow them in the same conditions to be able to compare them, i.e. you cannot compare wild plants with cultivated, I have also had some clones which never colour up such as the clone grown under the name "Phil Mann" here in the UK.
 

 

 

Cephalotus is a single specie like VFT ,and has no other close relative to hybridize with to make the realy significant hybrid changes people so desperately look for. Sure you will get colour , pitcher size , slight deformities or variations yes , no denying that,  but the basic Cephalotus plant will always be there , you cant not naturally change it from its parent form or general shape  -   unlike Neps, Sarras, Pings ect… that have lots of different specie in the family.  Cephalotus has none of these to make the significant changes that people seek  and most Cephalotus are subject to season and climate change in there growth habits as well ,making a stable uniform plant very difficult to stay stable 100% in different climates and  this is even evident in wild populations.  possibly a few exceptions as always.

 

I partly agree, certainly not as much variation as you would get say in Sarracenia, but after about 30 years of growing Cephalotus I do strongly feel that many traits are consistent and repeatably achievable in cultivation.  Not all the time, not every year, though, sometimes plants will decide they're going to throw up some odd pitchers for a season, or the colour is going to be a bit different (last year for example my Eden Blacks were all rubbish colour wise), but overall, over a few years the traits are generally consistent.  I have trouble getting some Sarracenia to show their cultivar characteristics, particularly Adrian Slack, as in my greenhouse it never gets the really white lid, or the red mouth, however in second-generation plants from Miroslav I do get much better colour.  Sarracenia Hummers Hammerhead also does not do brilliantly, it stays quite green with not much venation.  I don't think these cultivars are rubbish, I just don't think that they do well under my conditions, I don't get enough sun.  Not every plant will perform well for everybody.

 

You cannot compare traits of wild plants to cultivated, unless you remove wild plants and grow them in controlled conditions, to be able to assess whether those traits will persist long-term in cultivation.  Personally, I am not interested in wild location Cephalotus, what I want is large, strongly coloured plants which do well in cultivation, in this particular instance I am a horticulturalist and only interested in the growing qualities, selecting for colour, size and vigour, and plants that will do well under UK greenhouse conditions with their cold wet winters.  Any plants that do not perform well for me get thrown out, so in effect I'm selecting for plants better adapted to UK horticulture.

 

I've never claimed that Eden Black is the only dark plant around.  With the advent of the Internet, people are sharing information about plants a lot more than they used to, remember that Eden Black is about 30 years old now and in those days to see interesting plants it was only first-hand seeing other people's collections or the odd journal!  I sat on the cultivar for about 15 years before deciding that the colour was indeed consistent and significant, and worthy of publishing as a cultivar, but only time will tell whether I was right or not.  Occasionally other plants in my collection throw up dark pitchers, yes sometimes even darker than Eden Black, but these do not persist.  Eden Black is the only plant in my collection which consistently has much darker colour.

 

One thing that does bother me significantly (and I do mean significantly, like a knife in the guts) is that some people do not seem to be able to get a significantly darker growth out of Eden Black, in comparison to other Cephalotus.  I don't know the exact answer to this, but my main suspicion is lack of cool nights.  We know that the anthocyanins in Cephalotus are produced more during hot days, and broken down during hot nights, but it is the cool nights which makes the pitchers go steadily darker.  We don't have much sun up in Yorkshire, but still I manage to get good colour, which I put down to cool nights.

 

I'm all up for open and honest discussions on this topic, but please, please don't make rash comments based on hearsay, or an incomplete understanding of all the facts.  First-hand observations and comments are always best. 

 

 

Edited by gardenofeden
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However, undoubted fact is that the Cephalotus itself can not do this in different climates and conditions because the color is always unstable under different conditions in different growers and all that is once again proved with C. Eden Black.

 proved by whom? you?

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Dimitar, I don't believe I took it out of context. You have made this or similar comments more than once yet without justification or first-hand experience. Completely unfair.

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To be fair, the two pictures in this thread so far do not show particularly dark colouration.

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Personally, I am not interested in wild location Cephalotus,

 

 that is so  unfortunate  ,as I personally  think you would  get a  lot out of seeing and observing the wild  plants  in  the natural habitat , , its  how I got to  know about  neps and  tubers  , and  many  other  plants I grow  from  observing  them  in  the wild in  there natural  habitat and  attempting to  emulate  that in my grow area's .and dont always work out  they way you  like  them to.

 

""well you obviously dont come on the forum much! there are several posted or linked on this forum ""

 

yep  but  6 plants dont mean its a consistent stable  plant when so many others  dont seem to achieve  the  same presentation , have to refer back to  cultivar status as  in  Dimitar's   post  for  that  . which you say  cuts you  up and  unfortunate , and  is constant with  most cephalotus  plants  cultivated or wild .being season and climate variable 

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no, 6 plants don't mean its stable, but you said you had not seen any.

 

the issue is I really don't understand who the "so many others" are and similar quotes that keep being repeated ...I've never had anyone complain to me about the colour, as far as I'm aware it is a few individuals. 

 

it's information that this thats keeps getting banded around by a few people with an axe to grind that really bothers me, rather than the facts. Perhaps  we should have a couple of photo threads, one for those who get good colour, and one for those who don't.....

 

the whole point of cultivars by the way, its all about plants in cultivation.

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This thread is open to anyone who wishes to post pictures of their 'Eden Black' whether they show good colouration, or not. Ideally they would need to be pictured next to other different clones, grown in the same conditions, for comparison.

 

I think it has already been established that most, if not all, Cephalotus have the potential to take on good colouration in certain conditions, so does 'Eden Black' consistently get darker than other clones in the same conditions?

 

I do however question what a cultivar is. Should it not be consistent to the description in all typical growing conditions?

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Personally, I am not interested in wild location Cephalotus,

 

 that is so  unfortunate  ,as I personally  think you would  get a  lot out of seeing and observing the wild  plants  in  the natural habitat , , its  how I got to  know about  neps and  tubers  , and  many  other  plants I grow  from  observing  them  in  the wild in  there natural  habitat and  attempting to  emulate  that in my grow area's .and dont always work out  they way you  like  them to.

sorry, you misunderstand me, I am very intersted in Cephalotus "in wild locations", and I love seeing plants in the wild, I'm just not interested in the latest fad for collecting Cephalotus clones from named wild locations, like the seed you have been selling recently. If the plants turn out to be good growers with interesting features then fair enough...  :D

 

I actually think it is a bit irresponsible to sell location seed, as I feel it increases the pressure on wild populations, and is completely uneccesary as the plant is well established in cultivation...and as you say there is just the one basic Cephalotus so where's the need?  :D

 

perhaps this is the topic for a new thread....

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Dimitar, I don't believe I took it out of context. You have made this or similar comments more than once yet without justification or first-hand experience. Completely unfair.

Because the objectification of beauty or qualifying uniqueness originates from individual perception, conflicts regarding such will always arise.

In earnest, I harbor no malevolence - not towards any particular grower or, on more a ludicrous note, any particular plant. Simply, I question the rigidity and scrutiny which we impose on passing public decrees. Not to say that the requirements are inadequate, but a modicum of significant improvements will greatly benefit this community.

Devoid of a plant's origin - EB or other- the question remains: will the color attributes reliably reproduce under different environmental conditions?

 

p3150046_25f20_31265197.jpg

 

 

And I belive the onus should fall on the registrant to empirically determine this prior to registering for cultivar status.

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Well all I would say as a final note, and I mean final note as I'm completely f***ed off ... You stick your head above the parapet and try and publish a cultivar and see how difficult it is, and I'll give you some constructive feedback. If anyone wants to contact me I'll be at edenblack(at) btinternet.com. Otherwise enjoy your plants, which is what I intend to do. Adios.

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What a really worthwhile thread. People managed to completely 'hack off' Stephen so much it's looking like we have lost his many years of experience with carnivorous plants and his generosity.

'Eden Black' remains as a cultivar because it was properly registered under the rules and regulations.

Wonderful, a lose lose situation if i ever saw one.

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Dimitar

For someone who means no malice, you sure do a good job of offending people!

I completely understand why Stephen is fed up.

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Dimitar

For someone who means no malice, you sure do a good job of offending people!

I completely understand why Stephen is fed up.

Really,with what exactly I offended you?

 

With  what I offended Stephen? Because I questioned his cultivar status? Is it for that? Questions will be asked and of course answers will be given and not to escape from responsibility...

 

I know the truth hurts and it is really hard to be accepted but the life continues no mater up or down...

Edited by dimitar

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Stephen waited 15 years before he made EB a cultivar,plenty of time for its colouration to be tested.

He also gave a few plants to select growers and as far as i know none of these disagreed with the description.

EB was a cultivar well before all the recent hype with wild seed grown cephs,location or typical and plenty of people wanted it and still do.

Some people fertilize their plants,this alone makes them green and takes a long time to work out of the plants system.

many things can affect the colour.

Dimitar,my friend, i will send you one of my EB leaf cuttings. See how you get on with that.

If all else fails,you could all move to yorkshire where the plant was born and bred.

ada

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Really,with what exactly I offended you?

 

With  what I offended Stephen? Because I questioned his cultivar status? Is it for that? Questions will be asked and of course answers will be given and not to escape from responsibility...

 

I know the truth hurts and it is really hard to be accepted but the life continues no mater up or down...

I think maybe it's a case of thinking about how you get your point across. More tact me thinks!

And yes, I'm offended for Stephen as I have a lot of respect for him.

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