SD Titan now SD Kronos

[FlytrapRanch]

(Edit, July 31, 2014: This plant, formerly SD Titan, has been renamed to SD Kronos, due to a conflict with another Venus Flytrap that has also been recently named Titan, a seed grown plant of Kamil Pasek of BestCarnivorousPlants.net that Kamil has named BCP Titan. After communicating with Kamil I decided to relinquish the name, since he has already sold 1-2 dozen of BCP Titan, while I have not yet sold or distributed any SD Kronos except to the tissue-culturer. -Steve, Flytrap Ranch, New Mexico US)

 

I repotted my favorite seed-grown Venus Flytrap yesterday, named SD Titan. This is the plant's first year as an adult (the first year it has produced a flowerstalk). I'm especially fond of SD Titan for its prostrate growth and the exceptionally large traps it often produces.

 

 

 

I'm also using this Venus Flytrap in my ongoing experiment comparing my usual potting mix (sphagnum peat moss, coir, silica sand and perlite) to pure long-fiber sphagnum moss (with a layer of heavy sand at the bottom to help anchor the pot in the wind).

Edited July 31, 2014 by FlytrapRanch

[antoinemoore]

It looks great Steve what a monster of a plant can't wait to add it to my collection.

[SoLongFairWell]

Look forward to getting it one day.

[Carnicarni]

Monster vft !!! I want one !!! Congratulations it is beautiful !!

[FlytrapRanch]

A couple traps I removed from the SD Titan (the seed-grown original plant) before repotting it recently. I used the opportunity to take a photo to show scale and size of these representative or indicative traps; this is not a photo intended to document size for any competitive purposes.

 

 

SD Titan from Spring, 2014, just emerged from dormancy. The American coin, a quarter, is exactly 24 millimeters in diameter.

 

Edited June 24, 2014 by FlytrapRanch

[Phil Green]

Sorry, but in what way does this merit the name 'Titan' ?

Traps of just 4.5cm aren't exactly large - that is typical.

 

There are several clones already which reach 5cm. At least match them if you're gonna give it a name.

 

Sorry but there are far too many ORDINARY vft's being given names simply to tempt the gullible to part with there money.

[Deano82]

Lovely looking trap!

 

Bet it will be producing 5cm traps in a few years!

[FlytrapRanch]

Sorry, but in what way does this merit the name 'Titan' ?

Traps of just 4.5cm aren't exactly large - that is typical.

 

There are several clones already which reach 5cm. At least match them if you're gonna give it a name.

 

Sorry but there are far too many ORDINARY vft's being given names simply to tempt the gullible to part with there money.

 

 

"Sorry, but in what way does this merit the name 'Titan'?" -- It may not. Only time and the opinions of people who decide to grow it, evaluate it and judge it will determine whether SD Titan ever deserved a name in the first place, and whether it's worth growing with the nice variety of Venus Flytraps that already exist.

 

I can certainly understand your cynicism, and I agree with your sentiment that "there are far too many ordinary vft's being given names simply to tempt the gullible to part with there money." That's true, and is one of my complaints as well.

 

I've grown many thousands of Venus Flytraps over the years, and germinated thousands of those from my own seed. Rarely do they impress me as anything other than a nice but fairly typical plant. This plant however, now called SD Titan, has impressed me more than the thousands of other seed grown plants it has competed with in my own collection, and in comparison with the many named Venus Flytrap clones in my collection currently and in the past.

 

But just because it has impressed me doesn't mean it will impress everyone else. SD Titan won't be available for at least 1-3 years, not until enough have been propagated for distribution. Not a single one will be distributed or sold before there is a reasonable quantity already propagated. When the plant becomes available, I think that people like you, with your doubt and skepticism, should wait to see what other people who have bought or acquired the plant say about it after growing it for 2 or 3 years, before deciding whether or not you feel inclined to grow one yourself.

 

I think that it's very good to be a healthy skeptic. I'm often that way myself. I nevertheless feel confident that when others acquire and grow SD Titan for a while, they will be impressed by it as I have been. If not, SD Titan should be ignored and forgotten like so many Venus Flytrap clones that have already and deservedly suffered that same fate over the years.

 

I don't like hyperbolic marketing, so it's up to SD Titan to prove itself even to the harshest critics and skeptics, when that time comes. That time is still at least several years away.

 

Thank you (Phil Green) for being bold enough to state these questions and raise these objections. I often have skepticism and criticism myself, but usually feel a little reticent to express it. Your willingness to do so might make me more inclined to speak up, like you, about other plants even when my comments could be construed as negative and I know I'll be exposed to some rhetorical heat for doing so.

Edited June 24, 2014 by FlytrapRanch

[FlytrapRanch]

Lovely looking trap!

 

Bet it will be producing 5cm traps in a few years!

 

 

I really have no idea. So far I have only one mature plant, and the story of its growth from seed and why it has impressed me up to this point.

 

In my own collection, this SD Titan (the original mother plant grown from seed) grew faster than all its siblings. It's growth has remained prostrate so far, something that I personally admire and one of the things I like best about (the original) Low Giant. The traps are disproportionately large for the size of the leaves. SD Titan has produced larger-than-average traps more often than either DC XL or B52 or Low Giant or Big Mouth or any other large-trapped Venus Flytrap clone in my own collection, grown under identical circumstances.

 

BUT, none of that is important. In my view, the only thing that is important is to take this plant that has impressed me, and propagate it enough to begin sharing it with other people, so that _they_ can compare it to other plants in their own collections. Those who decide to acquire an SD Titan will be the final judge of its fate over the long term, regardless of any fond feelings I have for this favorite of my Venus Flytraps grown from my own seed.

 

While some Venus Flytraps have produced extremely large traps on very rare occasions, SD Titan seems to produce large traps more regularly and reliably. It's growth is vigorous and it's a beautiful plant, in my opinion. It ranks far above a "typical" in my own view, although many typical Venus Flytraps are beautiful, vigorous, colorful and can produce large-traps.

 

I have grown quite a few Venus Flytrap clones that I evaluated for a few years, then discontinued because they didn't impress me. So I can certainly understand any skepticism and cynicism, such as Phil Green's above, because indeed, there are far too many people inclined to name their plants in order to have something "special," and far too much marketing and advertising hype from commercial entities about their particular "next best thing" plants. Every nursery business exhibits exactly this same phenomenon, with market introductions of their special new plants. But only time actually proves (or not) whether those plants are or were worth their introductory cost.

 

So although I'm not going to throw SD Titan into the trash because Phil Green or anyone else says that it is ordinary or no better than a "typical" Venus Flytrap despite having no personal experience with it, I will certainly try to minimize any comments I may make about this plant that could be construed as hyperbolic, if I can. :)

Edited June 24, 2014 by FlytrapRanch

[SFLguy]

Quick question just to help clear things up, what's the reason you decided to name this plant? What attribute does it have that you believe makes it special?

[FlytrapRanch]

Quick question just to help clear things up, what's the reason you decided to name this plant? What attribute does it have that you believe makes it special?

 

SD Titan seems to have a genetic inclination for two of my favorite Venus Flytrap characteristics: prostrate growth (like Big Mouth and Low Giant) and large traps (like DC XL and B52, only more regularly so far).

 

However, there are other characteristics that first drew my attention to the seedling that was later named SD Titan, and which continued to attract my attention as it grew to adulthood. Several of those are the rate of growth (after several months of growing after germination, this plant was twice the size of the next largest of its siblings, of which there were about 200 plants from the same year's harvest of Dionaea seed at the Flytrap Ranch). This plant also began to produce oversized traps early in its life, and most of the traps it produced were oversized regardless of the season or time of year, especially when compared to other plants it was growing with.

 

In my own experience, SD Titan has proved worthy of a name. Whether anyone else thinks so will be up to them, after they have grown the plant themselves, if they desire to do so. At this time, there are only two people who have an SD Titan, myself and a friend in nearby Texas, U.S. who is growing one of SD Titan's natural divisions for propagation by tissue culture. So there are only two growers who can express their thoughts about this plant at this point, and I don't expect anyone to give any authority or weight to my comments about my own plant or regard my comments with anything but critical skepticism and cynicism, just as Phil Green has done (and for which I'm grateful). I feel exactly the same way about so many of the named plants I see photos of and read about here at CPUKforum and elsewhere. I also have my own prejudices: I don't like the "freak" Venus Flytraps that appear to be incapable of catching prey or having much advantage trying to survive in the wild. So I fully understand any and all doubt and "preemptive criticism" about this or any plant.

 

It is not up to me to defend SD Titan. Instead it is up to SD Titan to make a name for itself and to prove itself to other people who decide to grow it and compare it to the other plants in their collection.

Edited June 24, 2014 by FlytrapRanch

[mdeford09]

I am the other grower that currently has one of these amazing plants, so I figured I would take a moment and say a few words too :)

 

First of all, everyone is completely right to be skeptical. Too darn many plants are getting named and not enough have anything truly superior or different.

 

 

Before I begin discussing SD Titan, I want to talk about large traps and the current contenders for the largest trap. Anyone who has grown plants for more than a few seasons will know most plants, including B52 and DC XL, rarely put out traps over 3.8cm and anything larger than that, is pretty darn big. Most will also know just how rare a 4.5cm trap is.... Now, have there been larger traps on a plant? Yes. Most definitely. Do they only come from B52 and DC XL? No, they don't. Even most "typical" plants have the ability to, every few seasons, put out a few monster traps.... So just how often does B52 and DC XL put out traps over 3.8cm? The answer is rarely... And how often do DC XL and B52 put out a trap over 4.5cm? The answer is even more rarely... I personally know people who have grown B52 for many seasons, and DC XL, but never once saw a trap get over 3.8cm.

 

Since B52 and DC XL rarely put out traps over those sizes, are they really that special? The answer is no. 99% of the time you are growing a B52 or DC XL they are going to look like an average size typical. At least until they decide to get in that special moment every few seasons and push out 2-3 monstrous traps.... But, even most typical plants will do that. So again, are they really that special and do they really deserve their name?

 

 

Now onto SD Titan. Why name this plant? What is so special?.... Simple, SD Titan is the only plant in the world that will give you traps over 3.8cm regularly and every season. So far, SD Titan has out grown every plant in my collection and makes both B52 and DC XL look small 99% of the time.... Has it put out the new biggest trap in the world? Not yet.... Has it put out more giant traps than all other plants on average? Definitely. Mine has put out more traps over 3.8cm than every single plant in my collection. Heck, in this season alone my SD Titan has put out more 3.8cm+ traps than every plant I have ever had, combined. AND my SD Titan was nothing more than a small division last year. So in a single year it was gone from a "young" plant to a "young-adult" and has already hit 4.6cm.... SD Titan is doing something that no other current plant can do. There is not a another plant that makes 4cm traps average, normal, and happen daily.

 

 

Now for the part that really intrigues me..... What is the average sized trap on B52 and DC XL? I am sure it varies from location and grower. But for me, they both seem to average around 3.2cm 95% of the time. 4% of the time they get close to that 3.8cm mark and the remaining 1% they exceed 3.8cm... What is the average trap for SD Titan? I only have around 1 full growing season with SD Titan and it is still a young adult and wont be mature until next season. But so far the traps are averaging 4cm.... Steve has not told me what the largest trap he has ever seen on SD Titan was and so far mine has only reached 4.6cm. But, if this plant makes traps a cm larger, on average, than both of the 2 "largest traped plants". Then I personally can't wait to see what kind of trap it makes during that 1% growth period that allows the others to reach such massive proportions.

 

 

 

Of course, only myself and Steve have one of these plants. So this all means nothing to those who don't have one and can't come to either one of our homes to see it. So I say, "be skeptical!"..... It is good that so many growers are becoming so. We need to stop seeing so many average plants named and we need stop seeing so many average sized plants getting large names for the sake of money. And the more of us that speak out, the less of those that will try and sneak things through and create false hype around nothing...... So be skeptical, but get ready to see the biggest plant, on average, that you've ever seen!

Edited June 24, 2014 by mdeford09

[SoLongFairWell]

Sounds promising then.

[Phil Green]

Glad my comments haven't caused offence.

I think as a community we should all try and 'get a grip' on the current ridiculous situation with 'named' VFT's in particular.

I thought the VFT 'bad luck' post was going to be a 'dig' / joke - but no, unfortunately it was serious - another one fit only for the bid which has been 'named'.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do hope this does prove to regularly have large traps. I just feel it's a bit premature to be naming it - especially as 'Titan' is obviously such a must have name.

 

Thanks for the comments on it by both of you growing it - very interesting. If it does prove to regularly have most traps in excess of 4cm, for most growers, then it would be a good clone to have.

 

However, I can't speak for the 'large' clones you mention (I don't grow them), but I do find that South West Giant ("G16" and "Slacks Giant") regularly grows traps over 4cm for me. Also, the last time I was at Mike Kings I was amazed at just how large the traps were on most of his clones - Monsters!

I just think a little more patience and testing  should be done before unveiling new clones to the world. Once they are out there, that's it - the 'got to get 'em all' folks will now be clamouring to get their hands on one - regardless of how well it proves to perform.

I suspect there are going to be some people who already have all 3 of SWG, G16 and Slacks Giant in the grow or wants list - even though they are the same thing.

 

Here is one just taken from my SWG to show it - and obviously it should get bigger traps later in the year.

 

Good luck with it and I hope it does prove to be regularly a Titan

[corky]

Sounds promising then.

understatement   ,sounds blooming marvelous ,cool write up mdeford09,i too find SWG to be a cracking plant,mine is looking like a contender for the forums competition

Edited June 24, 2014 by corky

[mdeford09]

I just think a little more patience and testing  should be done before unveiling new clones to the world. Once they are out there, that's it - the 'got to get 'em all' folks will now be clamouring to get their hands on one - regardless of how well it proves to perform.

 

I have personally never grown southwest giant, so it may be one heck of a plant that I haven't gotten my hands on yet. Per your testimony, I will purchase one!... If I can find one.... I see the name G16 and southwest Giant both being sold at the same store, so I am not certain it will be easy to obtain the plant you have. At least over here in the states.

 

But, I could not agree with you enough on your comment above. But, this is exactly why Steve waited until his plant had matured with 4 divisions showing the same traits and the traits remained true.

 

Too many folks are too quick to name a plant. Especially a name that indicates it is some sort of "giant" plant just so they can make a large amount $$ off of it.... I have gotten myself into a bit of trouble over the years by calling those same things out. Steve said it best but, it is good to see folks being hesitant and wise to those tricks.

[SFLguy]

Thank you both for your explanations of the plant, I think that they were both great explanations and will probably give people a better understanding of this plant and give less reason to attack it, I personally think it looks great and that root system is amazing, great job with your plants :)

[mantrid]

you talk percentages and average trap sizes but show no tables of collected data of traps from many plants sampled randomly. so anything you say is bias and not scientific and therefore cannot be taken seriously by anyone with a basic understanding of proper scientific analysis.

 

You need to conduct some basic statistical analysis on groups of plants, record and present your data and results for your claims to have any validity that's the proper procedure anything else is just snake oil sales speak

[mdeford09]

you talk percentages and average trap sizes but show no tables of collected data of traps from many plants sampled randomly. so anything you say is bias and not scientific and therefore cannot be taken seriously by anyone with a basic understanding of proper scientific analysis.

 

You need to conduct some basic statistical analysis on groups of plants, record and present your data and results for your claims to have any validity that's the proper procedure anything else is just snake oil sales speak

 

lol!

 

While you are most definitely correct, I don't think something like that needs to happen. There are far too many variables to get a perfect answer. Also, everyone who has grown plants for multiple seasons will have done their own tests. Especially those in search for a giant trap. While my percentages are not perfect, they are close enough to prove my point.

 

lastly, anyone who has grown for multiple seasons will agree with my statements about B52 and DC XL... That is why it is so hard to find a "premium" sized plant available and why it is so hard to find many pictures of their traps hitting more than 3.8cm. It just doesn't happen that often. 

[FlytrapRanch]

Thank you Phil (Green) for your comments, and thanks for posting that photo of one of the great traps from your South West Giant Venus Flytrap.

 

I'm fairly sure I grew several of the South West Giant clone a few years ago, but then gave them away mainly because of the confused history of South West Giant, and the fact that evidently both 1) South West Giant exists under several different names, as you said, and 2) several genetically different clones are all being distributed under the name of South West Giant or one of its aliases. So I felt there would be no way to determine if I was growing a real South West Giant or not.

 

Regarding SD Titan, for quite some time it was unnamed, and then had the generic name "FTR 1" as it was growing under evaluation. When I decided it might ought to have a name, I wanted to use one related to astronomy or myth, like the name of a constellation or one of the Greek, Roman or Egyptian gods or mythical creatures. At one time I wanted to name it SD Perseus (the "SD" are just my initials, and there are now so many named plants that it seems like a good idea to have some kind of prefix to indicate origin, for ease of reference in the future).

 

I don't know if SD Titan will be "a flash in the pan" or not. Other growers may or may not like it or be impressed with it. We'll see. I'm personally curious to see whether this plant will grow well in a variety of conditions, environments, climates and care regimens of various growers around the world, to see if it impresses other people as it has impressed me so far.

 

Anyway, thank you for all of your comments in this thread, the photo of your nice plant, etc.

Edited June 25, 2014 by FlytrapRanch

[SFLguy]

@mantrid

Come on mate be reasonable, do you think the creators of the DC XL and others like it conducted statistical analyses to determine whether their traps were larger than normal? No, they were experienced enough to know a large trap when they saw one and decided to give it a name and that's that, there isn't much of anything scientific in naming a plant, and as the owner of the fly trap ranch, I'm fairly sure he's seen his fair share of traps, therefore I do believe that I can trust his judgement when he says his plant is consistently large even as a fairly young plant

[mantrid]

@mantrid Come on mate be reasonable, do you think the creators of the DC XL and others like it conducted statistical analyses to determine whether their traps were larger than normal? No, they were experienced enough to know a large trap when they saw one and decided to give it a name and that's that, there isn't much of anything scientific in naming a plant, and as the owner of the fly trap ranch, I'm fairly sure he's seen his fair share of traps, therefore I do believe that I can trust his judgement when he says his plant is consistently large even as a fairly young plant

 

It doesn't work that way, humans are bias no matter who they are and in science they always have to be eliminated from any testing, look up drugs trials. These tests require a number of traps to be compared to eliminate variations caused by other factors other than genetics.

 

If such tests were done on giants such as DC XL and B52 there would be less confusion as to whether they are any larger than a typical plant (statistically speaking) as the tests may have shown them not to be significantly different and therefore they wouldn't have been classed as giants in the first place.

 

On the subject of B52 I am still waiting after 3 years for mine to show traps that are not just bigger but even the same size as some of my typicals

Edited June 25, 2014 by mantrid

[SFLguy]

Again, there isn't anything scientific about the making process about a plant and expecting people to do time consuming research for it is silly, although I do agree that a proper scientific study would help clarify many things, I doubt any one will actually do it, and I think that anyone being upset that one person in particular hasn't done this study for their plant is wrong

[mantrid]

its not that time consuming really, it just involves measuring all traps on maybe half dozen plant or less traps selected randomly. then spending half hour putting the data into a formula to get the result. In fact the internet has freely available tools to use to do the analysis so you don't even need to do the maths yourself. For a little bit of effort it would add scientific credibility to your claims, or of course show you there is no significant difference

 

Im no statistician but I think the t-test is an appropriate test to use.

A quick google shows the that  t-test can be done on Excel . Excel appears to have a t--test function built in

 

http://www.kscience.co.uk/as/module5/ttest.htm

 

 

Its important that you devise some way to select plants and traps randomly without any kind of human influence. eg you could number the plants and select them by drawing their numbers out of a hat. You could also number traps and select them for measurement the same way. Your two sets of data (trap size) would be from your giant and a variety you wish to compare it too. For example you could compare it to a typical variety to see if there is a significant difference in trap size or even against other giants to see if your new giant is significantly different to them

Edited June 25, 2014 by mantrid

[mdeford09]

Most plants don't always produce large traps and they don't grow the same from year to year.... I mean the opposing questions are endless... Are we taking the data from the spring growth? Summer growth? Fall? Dormancy?...  Did the plant flower this season? How many divisions did it make after flowering? How long was the growth pause after flowering?... Did the plant suffer any type of set backs? Late freeze? Late watering? Too much watering?... What media was it grown it? What was the PH of the media in each pot?.... The amount of questions I could bring up to stifle the results is too many. 

 

 

This type of data gathering would take years to get a real idea and an accurate measurement, and the results would differ from region to region. These are living items subject to many different variables that can cause many different issues with the end results. If you really think I could just go grab a bunch of traps off of a few plants and give an accurate representation of the data, you are very, very wrong. I would need to do that every week for at least 3 seasons to show enough data to be correct on a scientific level...... Then, I would need to be able to replicate all results hundreds of times.

 

On top of all of those problems, the amount of plants I would need to have growing is huge. I mean, each time I pull a single trap off of a plant, I would not be able to gather from that plant again for at least 2-3 months. Due to each time I pull a leaf it stunts the growth of the next leaves. If it were as easy as you make it out to be, it would have been done years ago.... Of course, I could just leave the traps on. But, not all plants have nice 12cm long petioles to measure the traps easily and correctly. 

 

 

Remember, in science, something doesn't just happen once and they call it fact. You need to be able to replicate and produce results hundreds of times. Which takes years for even very minor things. So it is NOT as simple as measuring a few dozen traps and presenting a table.

 

 

But, most seasoned growers do have their own mental tables built and the ability to pick out great plants when they see one, and if anyone here is a seasoned grower and has the ability to pick out great plants, it is Flytrapranch.