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Hope someone can shed some light on this for me... As of yet all the new leaves that have come up on my plants have been simply folded in two, as if hinged with the hinged part moving out to form the part with tentacles. 

 

Now one of my plants (still small only ~4 inches high) is growing leaves that are coming up in spirals, is this a leaf or a more mature way of sending them out. Could it be something else like a flower spike (surely the plant is too small).

 

Any ideas or help would be great.

 

2nlsdxz.jpg

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Guest paul y

I swear d capensis germinates sexually mature, as in I have had seedlings much smaller than 4 inches flower, I have also noticed (I have a lot of d capensis) that the leaves come out folded and flower stems are curled like in the photo,  leave it a few weeks if its a flower and you don't want seed then cut it off, if its leaves and they are fine then nothing to worry about and happy growing

regards paul

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I swear d capensis germinates sexually mature,

 

Was a shock to me to think a plant so small is already sending out flower spikes lol. I will leave this one and see if I can get some seed from it. I hope it doesn't exhaust the plant but we have some good sun now and it is catching a good amount of food so fingers crossed.

 

Thanks for letting me known for the life of me I couldn't find any images of newly emerged flower spikes to compare it with.

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They spiral up because they are made for the sole purpose of reproduction. these strange leaves are called Gemmae or gemma- singular.  They spiral up in strange patterns in some species.  In other species this could be a flower, but these sundews sound to be way too young, they may as well be Gemmae.

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Hello,

 

They are called 'circinate' leaves. It happens on some localities of D. capensis, and did happen to me with the 'long petioles' D. capensis form.

It is supposed to occur on small plants of Montague Pass D. capensis too sometimes.

 

You should have a quick look here : http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31319&hl=circinate

Edited by Vince81
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In other species this could be a flower, but these sundews sound to be way too young, they may as well be Gemmae.

 

That's what I thought lol I'd love to have my first flower but I think I will be waiting a little longer for it to happen.

 

 

 

They are called 'circinate' leaves. It happens on some localities of D. capensis, and did happen to me with the 'long petioles' D. capensis form.

 

Good to know I hadn't seen leaves come up like this on D. capensis so I will be keeping an eye on this one to see how it goes.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello,

 

They are called 'circinate' leaves. It happens on some localities of D. capensis, and did happen to me with the 'long petioles' D. capensis form.

It is supposed to occur on small plants of Montague Pass D. capensis too sometimes.

 

You should have a quick look here : http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31319&hl=circinate

 

Spot on with this as it turns out the leaves unfurled and was circinate leaves on my D. capensis nice to have an odd plant but looks like I may now lose it as something odd making them all go black :(

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  • 2 months later...

Hey guys,

 

This subject is of high interest to me. Unfortunately the link Vince provided is a side discussion Andreas and I started (but which did not seem to go anywhere on this forum, although Andreas and I frequently discuss it).

 

I was actually just searching for the original discussion on leaf circination in D.capensis (which Andreas mentions in his thread), when I accidentally came across this current post. In that original post, someone had shown a D.capensis with circinate young leaves (rolled in), instead of the more typical involute vernation (where the lamina is folded over the petiole, like in FVTs). It was the first time I saw a circinate D.capensis and I was fascinated that the two vernation types could be found in the same species, as this has shown to be a pretty important taxonomic character in Drosera.

 

Anyways, what you claim is very interesting that your plants were originally involute and as they matured became circinate. Is this correct? How big are your plants (or how big were they when they became circinate)?

 

 

Thank you,

Fernando Rivadavia

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I found the original post!!! And I see it was Vince's plants. :)  Unfortunately the pics are not showing up anymore:

 

Hi there it shocked me when it happened. I think they were about 4 inches at the longest leaf and about 15 leaves to a plant. Until then nothing out of the normal.The leaves formed well and when unfurled became indistinguishable from the others.

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Wow, 4 inches is pretty big already. Do you have pics of the whole plants that you can post here? Do you know what form it is?

 

Do all the new leaves now have circinate vernation, do they produce both, or did they maybe switch back to involute?

 

 

Thanks,

Fernando

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I see only Involute vernation in Drosera.  I think the reason it appear circinate is some species just have lamina which have to be unrolled.  However, the leaf expand in all directions a' la involute.  Or another way to say it might be some species are "circinate post involute".

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To be honest, I'm not sure there actually is a substantial difference between  "Involute vernation" and "circinate vernation".  That or Drosera leaves are both at the same time...

 

For example D. regia the leaf bud clearly unrolls (circinate) and then the leaf clearly unfolds (involute).  Both states of vernation are seen in most species that I have seen.

Edited by Dave Evans
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Hey Dave,

 

As I wrote elsewhere, compare species with similarly shaped leaves like D.aliciae and D.tomentosa, as well as D.villosa and D.capensis and you will see a very clear difference in the way the young leaves unfurl, with one clearly having the lamina folded once over the petiole, whereas the other has leaves curled like fern fronds. Leaf vernation has a very strong phylogenetic correlation in Drosera, although there are exceptions.

 

From memory (too lazy to check right now, so may forget some details for any of the plants below), all Brazilian tetraploids are circinate, with the exception of D.tentaculata which is geniculate (see: http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=53226). All remaining New World taxa, belonging to the diploid clade, as well as D.sessilifolia, D.uniflora, and D.meristocaulis are involute, except D.filiformis/tracyi which are circinate.

 

In the African polyploid group all are involute, but those of sect.Ptycnostygma may be circinate or both circinate and involute in different leaf types. Africa is also home to D.indica and D.regia, which belong to other phylogenetic groups (see below).

 

In Australia/NZ all species (pygmies, tuberous, petiolaris groups, D.spatulata, D.subtilis, D.prolifera, D.burmanii, D.glanduligera) are involute except D.hamiltonii, D.adelae, D.schizandra, D.stenopetala, D.arcturii, the D.binata and D.indica complexes. The latter are circinate except for D.adelae and D.schizandra, which together with D.regia are circinate-involute, where the leaves are curled like in typical circinate leaves, but the sides of the lamina are also folded inwards (you obviously noted this in your comment above). As for D.arcturii and that new D.murfetii(?)... I don't remember. I'll let you look this up in the CP Photo Finder. :)

 

 

Best wishes,

Fernando

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From memory (too lazy to check right now, so may forget some details for any of the plants below), all Brazilian tetraploids are circinate, with the exception of D.tentaculata which is geniculate (see: http://www.cpukforum...showtopic=53226). All remaining New World taxa, belonging to the diploid clade, as well as D.sessilifolia, D.uniflora, and D.meristocaulis are involute, except D.filiformis/tracyi which are circinate.

 

 

Best wishes,

Fernando

Hello Fernando,

 

I'm not sure you want to be placing the tetraploids and diploids in different clades bases on their ploidy level...  In many cases the there is a closer relationship between pairs of species which are diploid and tetraploid that came from a most recent common ancestor.  However, given how old Drosera is, members of these pairs might not even be around or even be located close to each other now.

 

Also, when tetraploids and diploid overlap, the teraploids sometimes receive genetic contributions from the diploids when their gametes do not reduce correctly during meiosis.  But there isn't really any way for the genes from the tetraploids to make contributions to the diploid species...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Dave,

 

That phylogeny is not based on ploidy, LOL! Ploidy was merely something that we found to coincide with certain branches of the phylogenetic tree resulting from the DNA sequences.

 

Here's the link if you want to review: http://www.amjbot.org/content/90/1/123.full

 

You might also enjoy this website: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cp/EvolutionDrosera.php

 

 

 

Enjoy the reading! ;)

Fernando Rivadavia

 

 

 

P.S.  Thanks for the pics Vince!

Edited by Fernando Rivadavia
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