Ledge Bay cephalotus , dose not exist


snapperhead51
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There have been a lot of questions asked recently on the authenticity of established Cephalotus provenence, so if a new one enters the marketplace then it is going to raise questions. Giving a Cephalotus a unique name will make it more valuable in certain peoples eyes - irrespective of whether it has unique characteristics or not.

 

I personally have not questioned whether the location is genuine, indeed I was the first to post links to evidence that Ledge Bay is a location. From a personal perspective however, I would like to see a picture of the mother plant so that I can ascertain its potential.

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First contact should have been made with whoever is or were selling it before taking it anything further at all . Jumping into a matter like this that wasn't the proper way to go . It was totally wrong writing about this matter on the forum without more knowledge about the plant etc .

Mobile I am not talking about you . If I didn't have said what I did things would have got out of hand . Most important what about the way Andy as been treated .

Edited by dave
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dave,

 

you seem very irritated  and angry, judging by your posts, please calm down.

 

As was said already, no one blame anyone for anything and nobody questions who is honest and who is not. Have u seen such posts anywhere in that thread?

 

I do not see anything wrong questions to be asked and to get answered. I don’t see anything wrong if we try to name the plants correctly, and you?

 

There exist threads regarding Coal Mine Beach, Gull Rock Rd and soon there will be more for location plants. So, when I got these plants in cultivation for myself I showed them to the people clearly and everybody had and has the opportunity to ask questions and I was not angry by those questions. However, I didn’t straight put  for sale the location plants on eBay, not that I’ll do it some day ( that is my choice) but at least I give people the chance to ask question and to see how they look….

 

So once again, thanks Andy for your explanations. Please, would u show us the mother plant with ruler to the pitchers, so I can get better idea.

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Hi Andy , Glad you could  get into  the  thread ,hope your sea food expo was good ,  , have been  to  these places myself ,and  can tell you  that at  the  ledger Bay site / area ,  no cephs are there, so  the actual  thread Title is correct , 

 

They are in fact quite a distance from  the bay,  inland  , I know why Allen would put  that in  the packet , as ceph sites were and still are closely guarded by  those in  the know ,in-fact on a resent trip there no one  convey that there was any closer sites  than were seen and photographed   , I can ask him  in July when  I see him at  the  ICPS conference soon , but  that amount of time  he would struggle to recall any thing that long ago.

 

  " as stated " no  one is accusing any body of any  thing, just would  like to get ceph's named correctly  more often now ,and  yes  there is a Ledger Bay ,my mistake  , Google didn't  show it, and no sign's are there at  the  Bay or  headland on Gull rock road or Ledger road as stated ,. seen the plants  there and would not consider them to be  large or giant  wild  habitat plants,  have seen much lager at many other sites than  in  this area .

 

 

Well there is  a opportunity to get it correctly named or have a incorrect name  , what would be better !! ,  what about tying to get  them correctly named  for a change !!.

 

as for Giant ,  would  consider any  pitcher around 7.5 to  8 cm classed as giant, approx , these days , 5 to 6 .5  just average  and  3 to 4.5  small .

Edited by snapperhead51
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Dave do not understand why you so warm

instead you have to write on the forum

instead, contact Andy

so many people can read

so if the seller has nothing to hide

where is the problem???

I also know that Allen has sold plants

Also in Italy

probably did not put the exact name

to keep secret the area

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In Allen Lowrie's updated seed list 2012-2013, there are:

 

 

1.C.follicularis Donnley River, Western Australia

 

2.C.follicularis “giant pitchers > 5 cm long, plants turning maroon red-black in full sunlight” Ledge Bay, Albany, W.A.

 

3.C.follicularis “ selected clones turning reddish in bright light” Pingrup. Western Australia

 

4.C.follicularis “plants turning maroon red in full sunlight” Walpole, W.A.
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In Allen Lowrie's updated seed list 2012-2013, there are:

 

  

2.C.follicularis “giant pitchers > 5 cm long, plants turning maroon red-black in full sunlight” Ledge Bay, Albany, W.A.

So they are really just "large", much like the Paul Edwards' clone that has also gained a "giant" tag. Still large Cephs are better than small Cephs. Allen was sold out when I tried to get some of this seed a few years ago, that is why I remembered the name.

He has material from the "Giant" now too, or should have, so that might come up in future lists, as he has had it for a few years now.

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  " as stated " no  one is accusing any body of any  thing, just would  like to get ceph's named correctly  more often now ,and  yes  there is a Ledger Bay ,my mistake  , Google didn't  show it, and no sign's are there at  the  Bay or  headland on Gull rock road or Ledger road as stated ,. seen the plants  there and would not consider them to be  large or giant  wild  habitat plants,  have seen much lager at many other sites than  in  this area .

 

 

Well there is  a opportunity to get it correctly named or have a incorrect name  , what would be better !! ,  what about tying to get  them correctly named  for a change !!.

 

as for Giant ,  would  consider any  pitcher around 7.5 to  8 cm classed as giant, approx , these days , 5 to 6 .5  just average  and  3 to 4.5  small .

 

Unfortunately Google doesn't know everything.  Google earth could not even direct me to the bay when it is clearly marked on the map if you hunt for the lake near it.  Instead it was sending me several 100 kms away from it. 

 

As much as many of us would like to have more accurate names of our plants, I think that we may have to settle for the fact that many already in cultivation cannot be traced to an actual location.  I see a risk in re-naming plants as we may incorrectly do so.  This is why I don't re-name the plant supplied to me as "Giant", as 'Hummer's Giant', as I have no firm proof that they are one and the same, even though reliable people say that they are sure that it is.  Maybe what we need is a qualifier to location names, such as Ledge Bay (region) Giant to indicate that the exact site is not known and that it may be the same as other plants from actually named locations in that region, rather than a complete re-name.

 

Any other suggestions?

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yep !  dont stick you heads in the sand or have tunnel vision , ,we have actual people here who can tell you  locations of  plants with minimal  information  ! more location plants well be name and shown soon enough as seen on  Face book all ready , , many  misleading and incorrect information has been passed out over many many  years for what ever reason ,  wouldn't it be nice to  know  like all other cp's where  the  location is ?? and not just a stupid name of some one or there house or  wife or what ever ??

 

example :- N.lowii  Mt.Kinabalu , Mt. trusmardi , Pig hill , ect  , N.Rajah , Mt.Kinbabalu , Mt.tambuyukon .!  and i been here too to most of  these and many more !.

 

why not just get it right ??  I suppose  most just have not seen or been to  these places to  know enough about  it, but most I would think have not been to  Borneo ,Phillipines, ECT , and  the  names and  locations you all  except ?? recently climbed Mt. Victoria saw  N.attenboroughii ,you going to say I not seen  it so we will call it N. fat green pitcher plant  ??  Sarrs  how many been there and seen  them you all except  there  location names,   Tuber drosera, how many seen  what I see here  millions & millions of plants, ,  may be 10 people  , and its excepted by all that its right names and  location ,I recently  found a unusual  type of  D. whittakerii , and Allen some  new  tuber  plants,  so  are these going to be call some thing different or what is  put up ?? do I need to go  on !! so what is  the differences??

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Guest paul y

if you lean out the window and listen very carefully you can hear the scribbling of plant labels being rewritten.

so all these location specific cephs are being labelled as such in readiness for all the genetic testing to establish genetic differences between plants from different locations? or is the case that all cephs are genetically identical and cephs are in fact a plant that exhibits different traits under different conditions?

when mike king creates a new hybrid does the label read sarracenia x blah blah x blah blah my greenhouse my house Shropshire?

I may be wrong here but I thought the only point to location specific data is to secure genetic integrity for a plant with specifically unique genetics unique to that location?

you could add location data to british native sundews, but as they are all the same, with the only differences being expressed in individual plants through mutation what would be the point?

im only asking questions born of curiosity

remember the above before anyone tries to tear me a new one

regards paul

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Not talking about  hybrids  here  , , Cephalotus is  cephalotus  ,   and  that's  it  ,  you really do  not get a  whole lot a change  in any  plants  like  sarra  or  neps  and  other   plants , ,you may get a slightly  bigger lid or  different colour  or bigger body or a slightly muted shaped body  that's it ,  not  the dramatic  differences you see in hybrids  of other specie of  CP's , so  ruler that one  out  !!. it will all ways hold  the true  cephalotus ,  no  location genetic changes

 

So you would like to have all cephs just be named  as  Western Australian  pitcher  plants  , and  that's  it , no  location , no where its from ,  all put  in to  one  barrel  ?? so no one knows where  a plant comes from at all ?? 

 

interesting , I  think  I keep to  my way of  location  information  my self  

Edited by snapperhead51
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4.C.follicularis “plants turning maroon red in full sunlight” Walpole, W.A.

 

 

Allen sells and Cephs seeds labeled as Walpole location but does it make it real? Since the real location is Coal Mine Beach.  

 

Just my 2 cents...

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Guest paul y

is there a way to identify where a ceph came from by looking at it? as in could the worlds leading authority on cephs walk into a room containing 100 cephs and accurately identify where they came from?

if the answer is yes then a location specific ceph should be accompanied by a full taxonomical description so it can be readily identified as a ceph from a specific location.

if the answer is no then it leaves this whole location naming wide open to fakes and forgeries with very little way of proving anything either way. and in the typical spirit of humanity id bet there are lots of fakes and forgeries

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[...] it leaves this whole location naming wide open to fakes and forgeries with very little way of proving anything either way. and in the typical spirit of humanity id bet there are lots of fakes and forgeries

 

Which is exactly what we have now with cultivars and named clones - how many people can unequivocally trace theirs back to the originator? There is room for named cultivars and location plants, but where the location is known would it not make sense to refer to it by that - as is the case with Sarracenia - rather than giving it a 'marketing' name?

 

There are minor variances in Cephalotus forms, e.g. size, colour, lid size, shape etc., even under the same growing conditions. Some people want to collect these variances, in much the same way as people want to collect location named Sarracenia.

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So  in all  this  fog of  what is where and do is doing what,  

 

  Andy  ,

 

can you  please  post some / several  just taken  photos of your   Ledger Bay  mother  plant  , I have  photos of  plants from  the  sites  on  Ledger road  and Gull rock road ,  and would  like to compare  them with your  plant  thanks , hope your  not away on busyness again and view this  before you get  emails from  friends again

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Guest paul y

well there we go answers to my questions.

so in short who can I go too to buy location named cephs and actually get the real deal?

id like to point out that I was only asking questions not trying to prove any point, to date the only cephs ive bought had no location data but I would like to build a collection from different areas.

regards paul

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http://biocache.ala.org.au/occurrences/ee2279de-08c2-457b-a7e3-72d8c90bdda2;jsessionid=9EC2B641DC6793FFC7B44A141916A93E

ledge bay...ledge beach.... everybody can change one word and make a mistake

best regards

fabrice

 

 

nice find  here ,  as stated  in  this reference

 

Geospatial Higher geography Oceania Country Australia Locality Albany area, ca 2 km N of Ledge Beach. Heath on peaty, grey sand.

 

2 km north of  Ledger beach / bay ,  all most right ,  may be  a  little further , ! is close to  one site !.

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We all have to trust who we get our plants from.

The old (named or not) plants we will have to live with, for what they are and i will stick with the descriptions i got my plants as.

 

Now growers like John and a few others are growing location cephs from seed,eventually these plants will get out to other growers and the true location data will hopefully go with them.

 

These growers could keep a list of who they have supplied seed to and this could be traced back if a new grower asked questions about the supplier and location. I know this would mean extra work for the original supplier but it could eliminate doubt.

I think growers of any seed also need to keep a picture record of any plants as they grow and change,or in a few years anyone could pop up and say i grew this ceph from seed from Big lying git hill.

 

I made that location up,and i don't have any seeds either.

If people don't keep good records we will all be here again in a few years time.

 

ada

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Guest paul y

im pretty sure this issue of correct identification and naming was dealt with by the Victorians when the whole world accepted the now universal method of naming and describing plants.

its like ada says above, unless everyone is keeping proper records then it soon becomes a minefield of inaccuracy.

is the importance of the location relevant in other fields of horticulture?, as in do collectors of rare bamboo insist on accurate data?

what would be the outcome if one of the major collectors admits on their deathbed that they made the locations up to protect the actual locations? I certainly wouldn't release that info into the public domain because id be more concerned about the site being poached or destroyed than get some credit for discovering a site of a rare plant.

if I were to go into my greenhouse right now and write some location data on the label of one of my cephs just how can anyone else prove that it is or isn't what the label says?

and just who can be trusted to sell exactly what they say they are selling? id imagine trust and good faith are the needed currency in that transaction.

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and just who can be trusted to sell exactly what they say they are selling? id imagine trust and good faith are the needed currency in that transaction.

 

And there lays the flaw, as you don't always know who to trust, or indeed the person you trust might have received the plant from someone untrustworthy. I have a location Cephalotus and I can easily trace it back to the originator, who can confirm it is genuine. How many people can say that about their plants?

 

Ultimately though I guess it boils down to the fact that there is so little variance between Cephalotus that makes them almost indistinguishable between clones - even those that are well known. Collecting them by location for their genetic diversity is fine, if that's what you are in to, but if your are collecting them for their unique characteristics then I suspect many will be disappointed.

 

You see that beautifully coloured Cephalotus in my avatar, that is "Big Boy" and given the right conditions and can get any of my Cephalotus to go that colour, even 'typical', so it is not a characteristic of the clone, rather of the conditions. Many people however would pay good money for a clone that is described with that colour.

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this has been an interesting thread,my thoughts are if you want genetic diversity then all you need to do is get a ceph ,get it to flower and collect and sow the seeds,there you go,lots of unique cephs,and cost is one plant,very satisfying too

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in that case just take a cutting?if you only have one cephalotus self pollination will give you the same genetic plants as leaf cuttings.with something like 1 in 10,000 chance of some mutation forming

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oh,didn't know that i thought seed grown plants were all genetically different,i suppose you could push the boat out and get two plants,and weren't stephens eden black seeds selfed,they seem to be producing some different looking seedlings http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=44997&page=1 so you can see how i was mistaken 

Edited by corky
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