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Sudden Death time of the year! :(


flycatchers

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Funny how I find that cooler conditions seem to spark off Sudden Death. This week I lost my big Nutans Giant and today found my very large tatei with its tall woody stem limp & shrivelled :( It had looked brilliant on Monday when I was going to take a photo of it. On inspection the roots still look healthy as does the stem. On the other hand the nutans rhizome was brown, woody & dead. I have lopped up the stem on the tatei and turned it into a couple of cuttings. The nutans is in the compost waste bag!

And that follows both my H. tequila going down hill. One completely, the other partly rescued for the moment. And this is before the winter!

To me it is never hot temperatures that cause the Heli collapse. Just wish I could pin it down, as so often the roots don't seem to be the start of the problem. I do use Trichoderma atroviride but ultimately if a plant wants to die it still does!

bill

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Funny how I find that cooler conditions seem to spark off Sudden Death. This week I lost my big Nutans Giant and today found my very large tatei with its tall woody stem limp & shrivelled :( It had looked brilliant on Monday when I was going to take a photo of it. On inspection the roots still look healthy as does the stem. On the other hand the nutans rhizome was brown, woody & dead. I have lopped up the stem on the tatei and turned it into a couple of cuttings. The nutans is in the compost waste bag!

And that follows both my H. tequila going down hill. One completely, the other partly rescued for the moment. And this is before the winter!

To me it is never hot temperatures that cause the Heli collapse. Just wish I could pin it down, as so often the roots don't seem to be the start of the problem. I do use Trichoderma atroviride but ultimately if a plant wants to die it still does!

bill

Do you have a pic of the damaged/dead plants?

All the best

Andreas

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Here are a few shots of the chopped up tatei.

DSC_1790.jpg

DSC_1788.jpg

DSC_1787.jpg

The pitchers were looking fine on Monday when I last looked at the plant. When I unpotted it the bulk of the roots looked ok but in the past I have found any issues are to do with the rhizome rotting. I cut into it just below the newer roots appearing just below the woody stem. The middle of the stem looks healthy as do these new emerging roots. And when I up the woody stem in half the stem still looks ok. But something is preventing water from reaching the pitchers. I intend to cut back the pitchers some what and bag up both sections.

The nutans giant had been dieing for a longer period and although one or two of the growing points and pitchers looked ok. Their bases along with the rhizome was completely dead. And no material to salvage. :(

bill

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Here are a few shots of the chopped up tatei

....

The pitchers were looking fine on Monday when I last looked at the plant. When I unpotted it the bulk of the roots looked ok but in the past I have found any issues are to do with the rhizome rotting. I cut into it just below the newer roots appearing just below the woody stem. The middle of the stem looks healthy as do these new emerging roots. And when I up the woody stem in half the stem still looks ok. But something is preventing water from reaching the pitchers. I intend to cut back the pitchers some what and bag up both sections.

The nutans giant had been dieing for a longer period and although one or two of the growing points and pitchers looked ok. Their bases along with the rhizome was completely dead. And no material to salvage. :(

bill

These are typical symptoms of the "wilting disease" Heliamphoras often catch, when temperature is too high for longer periods.

If I understand correctly, temperature was not an issue in your case.

I can only tell from my experience, that the only cases of wilting disease I had were around 10 years ago when I lost almost my whole collection in the horrible summer of 2003.

After this nightmare, I kept temperature controlled either with the help of air conditioners (inside) or by evaporative cooling in greenhouses. I did not lose a single plant by this disease in all those years since 2003.

However this does not necessarily mean that there are no other factors of influence.

BTW, there are many indications, that wilting disease in Heliamphora is caused by Colletotrichum.

All the best

Andreas

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Agree with Andreas,

fly catchers

I wounder if you keep you plants in standing water all the time ?? this can cause the low temp rot problem too from root and stem rot , may be a possible cause, is one reason I dont stand my plants in water at all , seen it many times, its fine in the wild but in many G/H or grow areas its not working so well for people ., just a thought for past experiences .

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Agree with Andreas,

fly catchers

I wounder if you keep you plants in standing water all the time ?? this can cause the low temp rot problem too from root and stem rot , may be a possible cause, is one reason I dont stand my plants in water at all , seen it many times, its fine in the wild but in many G/H or grow areas its not working so well for people ., just a thought for past experiences .

90% of my Heli are not stood in water including the tatei/ nutans. Just watered from above like my neps.

However an earlier tequila which went down hill. One of the bits which eventually recovered only did so when left in a saucer of water containing Trichoderma atroviride. As the water got used up the plant started to go limp/wrinkled again. So after that kept it topped up all the time!! The mysteries of growing Heli!

bill

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90% of my Heli are not stood in water including the tatei/ nutans. Just watered from above like my neps.

However an earlier tequila which went down hill. One of the bits which eventually recovered only did so when left in a saucer of water containing Trichoderma atroviride. As the water got used up the plant started to go limp/wrinkled again. So after that kept it topped up all the time!! The mysteries of growing Heli!

bill

Which is your maximum daytime temperature in summer and the night-time drop?

All the best

Andreas

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Bill

Andreas looks like seeing it from another angle /symptom . may be more relevant to you climates .

I found plants like tatei here were very suspect to too much water, when less water was given they picked up ie :-not standing in water !. I use a product called fongarid here for all fungal and rot problems with helis and CP's in general, when any of these symptoms occur give them several 2 day interval repeated doses around the affected areas, this all way solves the problem for me here !.

I dont get stem or root rot from to much water, the large air flow in my G/H keeps most of that at bay i believe . i only have to deal with the sudden temp spikes here from 20c to 38 c in a day and lasting for several days , common thing here , knowing that makes it easy to deal with

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Hi Andreas,

The average temperature in that house is 23-27c during the day and about 18c at night. These were the max & min since May using my weatherstation. It is a fair bit cooler since the start of September. This house never gets direct sun- more dappled. And the heli including the tatei grow on the ground where it is cooler still. Its frustrating losing these older well established plants. I remember a ionasii I got from EP a few years ago went the same way in about September. Again a well established big plant, growing well in the summer- them one day it wilted. Roots looked fine, but in that case there was a bit of browning in the rhizome.

Having grown Heli for almost 24 years now and still growing my first ever plant also a nutans its annoying that these occasional but destructive losses still occur. And there seems as if there is nothing you can do about them.

Snapperhead- over here alas there are no effective fungicides available- the EU has seen to that! I also feared the tatei might keel over once its woody stem developed. But its ironic that the stem itself looks healthy inside. I have potted up both bits. I don't imagine the woody bottom section will do anything. But fingers crossed the top might. Alas the nutans giant was totally browned off at the base. That one had been growing outside during the summer- & looking good on it- till the wilt!

bill

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Bill very sorry to hear this ,and understand your frustration, been there my self, I am sure that the Fongarid would have helped, as the Tricherdema works at temp , it may still work there as long as the temp is up over 20c using 3ml to 250ml of water for a 1 Lt pot. but its not a quick fix like the systemic fungicide

I have grown back plants from just woody stems before, its slow but do-able, long as it has roots, but I like to have them in a lot of sun too to do so and the Fongarid , but that dont help you .

Bill is there a particular reason you grow your helis in high shade or dapple sun than in more sun .

just to get a plants going here When I give it a load of sun , direct sun at about 70 to 80% , I hope some one can find the answer for you .

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From my personnal experience, its a water+light problem.

When i look at your picture, your heli do not get enough light. The plant is very green.

Light = energy, so when you dont throw enough light, the plant cannot deal with minor infections and this can take over your heliamphora.

So for me, your issue is clearly a lack of light+lack of ventilation.

Of course, like i said, i speak from my own experience.

Feel free to disprove!

Edited by Maiden
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Hi,

sorry to hear that you have so serious problems! I also had some problems with fungal infections on Heliamphora in the past, killing always the biggest plants, but since I have a good misting system and good ventilation, in compination with a lot of light, I never had to deal anymore with this problem. I would say that good ventilation is one of the most important factors in the cultivation of highland plants, because like this one can cool the leaf surface of the plant itself by evaporation of the water droplets from the misting system...

Cheers

Marc

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I have found that often plants subjected to too high temperatures will survive quite well during the actual heat episode, but when cooler temperatures arrive again the damage becomes evident. I see the reverse happen frequently with lowland Nepenthes and also highland when seasons change and they move out of preferred temp ranges.

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  • 1 year later...

Still losing plants. The same way where a plant looks healthy one day and a few days later is limp, wrinkled and dead or dieing. Found one of my 25 year old nutans going that way last week! :( And in a different greenhouse one of my few remaining tequila clones completely dead this morning. I was admiring it only on Saturday! In both cases I have unpotted the plants and both have healthy white roots and what seems like a healthy rhizone. When snapped apart it was white and clean inside. Both plants do not show any signs of rot anywhere (until a previous plant in the past where the rhizone was totally brown and dead. I have been using Trichoderma atroviride regulary for some years now. And have tried various different growing areas. More sun, less sun. And increased ventilation and methods of watering. But still they collapse! This issue first reared its head in 2009 and has has increased since them. I have isolated plants and have a couple of new greenhouses built as well as using my original growing area which was ok from 1997 till 2009 when the issues started. Now I don't bother replacing any lost plants or buying new ones- can't see the point. And high temperatures seems the last thing they get. So no idea whatsoever how to get rid of this disease or issue.  

 

I am trying a few heli in a new tank since 2012 and (so far) no losses. But the tank was really intended for neps and propagation and does not allow more space for more heli in there. Plus I still really prefer them in a greenhouse setting where for the first 12 or so years had no issues. Depressing when see adult size plants just croak and die and so suddenly!  

 

Bill- Number One heli killer!! :)

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Hey Bill

Sorry to hear about the troubles your having.

I'm not able to give any advice I'm afraid, never tried Helis but I can sympathise as have lost valued plants to sudden death or an unexplained illness at least.

Your case sounds a bit more dramatic than the odd " here and there" though........

Fingers crossed you find a reason/ cure soon.

Good luck from a fellow kent enthusiast.....

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Thanks Blocky.

I do know I have become paranoid about these plants now. I only handled this particulary cross last week and thought how well it looked- new pitchers and a flower. Yesterday gave the plants some water and the whole thing is shrivelled and limp. Out of the pot there is no obvious signs of rot. The stem "looks" healthy as does the white roots. In the past some of the dieing heli have indeed had a brown core to the rhizome or stem- but not always. So did handling it pass something on? Or was it the water? I use my "best" water either rain or RO water on my heli. And compost of Live sphagnum moss with perlite or clay pellets. In the old days I often wondered why people sometimes seem to struggle with Heli. And never thought twice about unpotting and splitting them up. But nowadays don't know what to do. I reckon I have lost at least 12 or more mature plants over the last few years.

 

Plants like these!

 

DSCF5891.jpg    

 

 

H. ceracea RIP 

 

 

DSCF6746.jpg

 

EP tequila clone RIP

 

DSCF6742.jpg

 

 

H. tatei var. tatei RIP

 

And many more....

 

Dread going in the greenhouse these days- so the fun of the hobby has gone as well!

 

bill

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That's really upsetting to hear Bill.

I know attached you can get to specialist plants that have been lovingly nurtured for years.

I've had a few close calls to getting rid of my plants after losing some much loved ceph clones for no apparent reason.

It's not knowing what went wrong that still really bugs me, random healthy plants dying whilst others thrive, all kept in exact same conditions?.

Have you had any issues with any other plants or is it Heli specific?

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Have you had any issues with any other plants or is it Heli specific?

 

Funny you should say that but I have had less sucess with Nepenthes as well. This started a few years after the Heli period and begin with losing my large 14 year old villosa and a large rajah in 2012. And rather like the heli it has continued with losses like my vining hamata, ovata, truncata and others. Mainly lost just after the winter period, though the villosa/rajah went down in September of 2012. So my skills level at keeping these plants alive and happy does seem to have evaporated somewhat! I have been growing CPs in general non stop for 28 years now. Time to retire I wonder?

 

DSCF5539.jpg

 

 

DSCF5531.jpg

 

Still at least I have still have my photos of happier times! ;) 

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28 years is impressive! Please dont give up on these magic plants.

Can i ask what are your exact growing conditions? (Day/night temps, RH%, soil mix and PH, lighting, ventilation, watering method and water type, misting frequency, feeding etc).

Also, do you grow your helis and your neps together? What are the growing conditions that you share with both genus? Ex: same perlite, water etc.

Do you have some issues with all your plants?

Edited by Maiden
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I'm guessing you have already considered most scenario's and you have 20+ years growing experience to me but i would be looking along the lines of some sort of contaminant.

Were the plants that have passed away repotted anytime before they went downhill?, I've read several cases of some batches of moss peat containing fertilizer via cross contamination from where it's bagged up. I read you don't use moss peat, perlite is pretty inane in substance so maybe the clay pellets?, could they be leaching minerals into the mix as they break down?.

Still having a healthy looking root system after the plant has perished is unusual and would, in my limited experience, rule out fungal infections except for say mildew but you'd be able to see that and would be a slower die off than yours.....

The only plants I have had that died in a similar way to how you described was a snail ravished young sarracenia and a nepenthes I forgot I'd put outside for some sun light during the winter and it got "frosted" overnight. The plant turned to mush in a couple of days.

Are your " sensitive " plants protected from low temperatures?

All the best

Blocky

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28 years is impressive! Please dont give up on these magic plants.

Can i ask what are your exact growing conditions? (Day/night temps, RH%, soil mix and PH, lighting, ventilation, watering method and water type, misting frequency, feeding etc).

Also, do you grow your helis and your neps together? What are the growing conditions that you share with both genus? Ex: same perlite, water etc.

Do you have some issues with all your plants?

 

My average day temperture in the winter is 55f and summer peaking at 75/80f. Night time average 45/50f. Pretty well all my losses occur in the cooler time of the year. Soil mix is LFS mixed with clay pellets and some orchid bark. I am now going back to LFS with perlite- as that is the mix I used for many years when I first started. 

Lighting is completely natural apart from the few plants going in a tank which is 4 4foot T5 tubes. 

I use either rain or when running short in summer RO water. In most cases I water from above. But have some plants stood in saucers of water. I dont mist plants- never have. But sometimes fill the pitchers with water. 

I rarely feed them either- they do catch insects. I have used maxsea if I do feed.

 

Till 2003 I grew all my Neps & Heli in a sectioned off part of my greenhouse. All the heli on the floor. After 2003 I converted the rest of the house to neps and heli. And grow additional plants on top of a plant cabinet. I also now grow heli in my (now heated) Sarracencia house and also keep some plants outdoors in the summer.  

 

My losses really started from 2009 onwards. With a H. ionasii first showing this collapse signs. Since them I have had regular losses covering these three growing areas- but not so far the tank (fingers crossed!).

Interestingly I have just found an e-mail from UK grower Andy Smith from 2009 where he said that he lost almost half his collection of large mature plants in exactly the same way. He reckoned it might be Phtyophthera. When I got his e-mail I had just lost my ionasii. Alas it seems as if Andy Smith has dropped out of sight these days as I would have interested to see if he had found a solution.

 

I found another plant dead today a young  H. neblinae which again had looked fine a day or so back. Now completely dead and in this case the rhizome is totally brown and dead. This is three different plants in the last two weeks each growing in a different area or greenhouse!. Do I repot all my remaing plants (which when I did with my large h. pulchella last year caused it to die!) Or leave them and hope!! Until I really find the source of this problem it seems to just a case of seeing which plant is next!! I don't intend on buying any new plants.

 

bill

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Sorry for your loss bill, but i'd like to share my experiences regarding these kinds of losses since they seem remarkably similar:

 

Some low quality pics i have at hand from a recent loss:

qAPha1J.jpg

GYJKpXQ.jpg

 

Crown rot seems to be the case, always (for me), yet it never happens in summer period. It seems to occur between Oct-April when temperatures are low.

 

My variables are:
Soil: 100% living LFSM 

Watering: Top

Water type: Rain or RO (<20PPM)

Trychoderma: No

Feeding: Once a month, give or take, 1:100 liquid orchid fertilizer.

Humidity: 85+% RH during the day, 99% RH during the night.

Light: 6x10W 6500K LED, 16h a day.

 

Summer:
Temps: 24-33 C 

Temps Night: 15-20 C

Winter:
Temps: 18-25C

Temps Night: 15-17C

 

From moment of noticing something is wrong to death is often less then a week, roots are always healthy.

Last case i experienced was soon after a repot, while other cuttings were unaffected (all same tank, exact same conditions).

 

I have finished my new heli tank recently (arduino controlled with ultrasonic humidifier and fan), so im hoping this improves the issue regarding the sudden deaths, but am still baffled about what the cause is...

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Yes those shrivelled pitchers look very familar alas. I sometimes get rot in the stem or rhizome but not always. And nearly always the roots still look fine which rather disproves the root rot theory. I checked a few more e-mails and PMs of recent years & I have found other German & UK growers suffering sudden and extensive outbreaks. And so often after cooler rather than hotter weather.

 

My main issue for me now is whether I start repotting all the plants I have left or not. I remember the happier days where I thought nothing of spliting up heli and repotting. Now I almost dare not look at them!

 

I hope your new tank works for you Sander. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yes those shrivelled pitchers look very familar alas. I sometimes get rot in the stem or rhizome but not always. And nearly always the roots still look fine which rather disproves the root rot theory. I checked a few more e-mails and PMs of recent years & I have found other German & UK growers suffering sudden and extensive outbreaks. And so often after cooler rather than hotter weather.

 

My main issue for me now is whether I start repotting all the plants I have left or not. I remember the happier days where I thought nothing of spliting up heli and repotting. Now I almost dare not look at them!

 

I hope your new tank works for you Sander. 

 

Well, i get the impression that with helis its way easier to get the crown to rot, rather then root rot. 

And if i were you, i'd repot, just to make sure its not a factor in these outbreaks (yet it might be spread by water or ie.)

 

I just looked at last months data from my new tank, here it is, it has an inside and outside sensor and measures every 2 minutes.

1cmOzFX.png

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