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New S.flava cultivar + Additional re. atropurpurea v rubricorpora


Kiwi Earl
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Stunning. I'm going to ask the question though - why atropurpurea not rubricorpora?

The description and the references accompanying it pretty much say it all. In addition, I think the best answer I can provide is to paste here the answer I gave to this question previously in this post from meizwang http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=47093

As the person who supplied the plant in the photos, I can add some information that may clarify and reinforce the things meizwang has said - particularly in reply to Alexis' query as to the plants correct varietal name. This is indeed a S.flava var. atropurpurea and a genuine Carolina one at that.

1) The plant in the photos is a asexual division of the plant below

IMG_4266LargeMedium.jpg

2) The plant has been grown in New Zealand for over 30 years. It was imported initially by the Christchurch Botanic Gardens as a live specimen supplied from the USA. Subsequently, Christchurch Botanic Gardens ceased cultivating Sarracenia and their material, including this var. atropurpurea, was passed on to a private grower during the 1980s. After a short period that grower also wound up their Sarracenia cultivation and the atropurpurea was obtained by D. Gray in 1987. The clone has remained in the care of Gray and only two other people (one being me) and has been maintained as pure since it first arrived in the country all those years ago.

3) As a feature of New Zealand's second largest city, Christchurch Botanic Gardens was founded in 1863 and throughout its history acquired many exotic species. While details are not able to be confirmed, it is known that the atropurpurea clone was imported from the USA with it almost certain to have been a specimen collected from the wild given both the status of the gardens and the the fact so many plants were collected that way during that period.

4) The plant is a Carolina S.flava var. atropurpurea as distinct from the western Florida named "atropurpurea". The application of the varietal name to those significantly different plants, particularly var rubricorpora clones that eventually become fully infused, is the subject of conjecture. Verification that the clone pictured is a Carolina atropurpurea comes via the following:

a. It matches Don Schnell's original description of Carolina S.flava var atropurpurea based on field observations perfectly http://www.carnivoro...n4p116_120.html

b. The clone is clearly of the same variety, both in colour and form, as wild atropurpurea native to Green Swamp, North Carolina featured in the invaluable photography of Jim Fowler (as referred to by meizwang above), they too matching Schnell's description. Particular note should be giving to the newly opened pitchers (as the ones posted here by meizwang and myself are) such as this one http://www.pbase.com.../image/96651966 , the form of the mature pitchers and, notably the veining on the column which is almost identical, a blueprint in effect (see meizwang's photos).

5) To address Alexis' question (a common one), the clone in question is in no sense a S.flava var rubricorpora based on the on the description and observations of that variety in the field:

a. Grown optimally, pitchers of this atropurpurea clone never have a yellow hood at any stage throughout their growth cycle. Prior to opening, that portion of the leaf that will become the hood is always red. This can be seen in both Fowler's Green Swamp field images and meizwang's here.

b. The form of pitchers of the clone are representative of the S.flava varieties that exist in the Carolinas. The pitchers are quite different from the Florida rubricorpora throughout the colour variability of that variety, including fully infused all red individuals that begin life as any other rubricorpora but that are then accorded the distinction of being two things at once in being named "atropurpurea" as colour fills in.

c. A feature of var rubricorpora, both in the field and in cultivation, is the low number of pitchers produced per growth point per season. This is well documented and a justifiably definable feature of rubricorpora that sets it apart from other S.flava. The atropurpurea clone discussed here exhibits the typically vigorous growth pattern of the related Carolina varieties as can be seen in the images of it.

I believe the misidentification of var rubricorpora as "var atropurpurea" readily occurs and incorrect classification has become widely accepted as a result.

I suggest that rare S.flava var atropurpurea as found in the Carolinas and represented by this particular clone is a distinct variety, as it always has been for a number of reasons - not least geographical isolation of ~700 miles from the highly variable var rubricorpora - and that the varietal name should apply to it alone. And further, that the name S.flava var atropurpurea should reflect this geographical isolation, as it does in reality for other populations within Sarracenia species, rather than reflecting a blanket reliance on colour alone as a determining factor.

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Very interesting Earl. I must admit I'd missed significance between the Florida and Carolinas S. flava var. atropurpureas. I thought a red tube was a red tube! I guess most people's atropurpureas are the Florida version. Checking Mike King's list there is only a single plant named as coming from the Carolinas.

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Hi Martin

One key aspect of what I suggest is the misidentification of S. flava var. atropurpurea in western Florida lies in the fact that within the colour variability of var. rubricorpora under nominal conditions some individual clones will express more red than others in the outer surface of the hood. Studying photos of stands of var. rubricorpora in western Florida will often reveal this variability including those rare individuals on the way to or actually being fully coloured up. Indeed, often it is those that genetically are of the darkest shade of red or toward purple that present this way. The thing to remember here is that var. rubricorpora pitchers open with a yellow hood even if in some individuals it eventually over time becomes fully infused with red along with the rest of the pitcher.

Here are some photos of mine that may reinforce my explanation. All the var. rubricorpora are from site collected seed from Liberty Co. and remain pure.

For a comparison between the varieties in question, in this one, a fairly typical var. rubricorpora sits in front of S.'Waccamaw', representing as it does the Carolina var. atropurpurea

CarlSumatraAtrocMedium.jpg

The following photos from my outdoor grown collection highlight my submission that an individual clone simply cannot be credibly described as two varities at the same time. As I say, the plants featured are essential wild specimens having grown from seed collected directly from var. rubricorpora stands (by an entirely knowledgeable expert I might add) so are completely representative of the variability of var. rubricorpora. The range of variability was described, correctly in my view, in McPherson's, Pitcher Plants of the Americas (2007).

1) Here we see a recently opened pitcher of an individual var. rubricorpora that no one with experience would describe as anything else, certainly not var. atropurpurea with that yellow hood. Granted it is quite an infused hood and notable thereby.

JBpurpleLibertyCofrubricorporabSmall.jpg

2) Here is the same clone as it appears 2 weeks later. Obviously the genetically driven infusion of deep red has continued until the plant is now fully coloured

JBpurpleLibertyCofrubricorporafSmall.jpg

3) In this photo, on the left we see the clone featured above whilst one the right we see another clone from the same seed batch. Note the difference in the degree of red infusion

SumatrarubricorporaO251211gcopyJDBrook2011_zps2c67d0c4.jpg

The simple reality is that both are var. rubricorpora and started out the same way as all do - with yellow lids. As they appear in the photo, coming across the plant on the right in the wild, should it have germinated in the location rather than with me, one would say: Nice var. rubricorpora! As to the one on the left? It would be incorrect to attribute it as var. atropurpurea on a number of fronts, not least that it wouldn't be known what it looked like a couple of weeks prior when it clearly would've presented as a var. rubricorpora. This is the crux of the matter.

What we can refer to when recognising var. atropurpurea as against var. rubricorpora are recorded field observations and subsequent descriptions (including by Schnell) of var. atropurpurea as found in the original location in the Carolinas (in population with vars. flava, cuprea - with which var. atropurpurea shares the same pitcher form and veining pattern - and maxima) and, particularly, the invaluable photos of wild var. atropurpurea captured by Jim Fowler within the Green Swamp. Fowler's photos clearly show that the colour (including when new pitchers are yet to or just opening where the hood is red from the outset rather than yellow) is distinct from var. rubricorpora from western Florida, as is the overall form of the pitchers themselves.

My position is that it is too simplistic to simply define the flava variety atropurpurea based solely on red colouring, thereby finding it where you will among any flava population. In the case of western Florida, yes, all red clones are to be found. But by virtue of the reasons I've outlined, merely refering to superficial colour doesn't tell the story, when pitcher form (including column height and angle of inclination as well as spout shape), plant growth pattern (var. rubricorpora is notorious for individual plants producing very few growth points and resultant pitchers per season), position within a variable but inherently nominal and genetically aligned population, and location - with that location being a vast isolating geographical distance away from var. atropurpurea in the Green Swamp are defining features. The "all red" plants in Appalachicola etc are var. rubricorpora and always were distinct from Carolina cousins.

It is my opinion, that the variety name, atropurpurea, was established from Carolina observations and, for good reason, should remain applied to plants from there. As pointed out by McPherson in Pitcher Plants of the Americas, complete with a photo line up, var. rubricorpora is intensely variable. That range of variability within the variety was followed up on in his subsequent monograph, Sarraceniaceae of North America. However, the premise was put that var. atropurpurea individuals could be a feature within stands of var. rubricorpora, something I suggest is impossible.

I suspect a good deal of the confusion stems historically from exactly what you say Martin: "I thought a red tube was a red tube", based on those plants in cultivation in the UK decades ago. I submit this needs revision.

Interestingly, the fully red var. rubricorpora featured in this post continues to gain colour - all within a four week period from opening - until it attains a very dark purple with silver sheen in the column shoulders and mouth roll (see photo below). This colouration is not end of season degradation but early season. However, it still remains what it started out as, var. rubricorpora. Just a very, very dark and rather attractive one. Perhaps it defines a new variety needing a name......?

SumatrarubricorporaO251211bcopyJDBrook2011Medium_zps0c1e60ad.jpg

Edited by Kiwi Earl
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Cultivated plants aside, I speak to the difference of wild red flava as found in the Atlantic Plain from those found in NW Florida. My position is that colour alone viewed in a snapshot moment is not sufficient to warrant nomenclature that places vastly demarcated populations in the same variety.

Refer to the images in Sarraceniaceae of North America: Figs 148 & 149: Fowler's reproduced photos of wild Carolina var. atropurpurea; and Figs 146, 147 & 150 of purported var. atropurpurea from Florida locations. They are clearly morphologically distinct. This redolent difference can be seen in any number of photos of var. rubricorpora populations in Florida. Equally, in those populations some individuals are expressing alleles alternative to the nominal in becoming darker.

Indeed, Fig. 168 in Sarraceniaceae of North America highlights this: there are a couple of individual plants where the hoods are becoming infused to a great extent. Much like my examples, if one visited the same site two weeks further on those individuals may well be fully infused. My position is it is illogical to bind what can only be var. rubricorpora with var. atropurpurea. The darker plants among those Florida populations are simply at the dark end of var. rubricorpora colour variability. My suggestion is, why not recognise var. atropurpurea as by definition an East Coast variety (not least due to its rarity) and recognise and celebrate that var. rubricorpora is widely variable variety native to a location many hundreds of miles away?

Interestingly, almost all images of the famed Blackwater red plants show them fully coloured up - clearly a great time to visit. Lacking are records of the site during that period pre or just post the pitchers opening. However, there is this and other images in jupertersnest's Blackwater photo record of the location http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

Taken in early May, note the yellow hoods on the red plants. There seems little doubt that as time passes these plants will become full infused as in the case of this individual http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

Indeed, note this photo taken in August as the Blackwater plants are deep into their season and are entirely red as would be expected http://www.flickr.co...est/9673252967/

Jason Ksepka has some interesting Liberty Co. and Okaloosa Co. photos. In this photo http://jasonksepka.s...tonia/i-vrL5bN7 we see classic Liberty Co. var. rubricorpora (the plants I used in my examples are from those locations) with some tending toward the fully infused. However, take a look at the left hand side of the image where a yet to open pitcher has a yellow tip/hood ie, a defining feature of var. rubricorpora.

Then there are these plants from Okaloosa which are very enigmatic, especially when backlit as they are http://jasonksepka.s...tonia/i-5WkPQvQ. Although they could be referred to as "atropurpurea", they appear to be some progression of var. ornata or an intergrade of varieties (which may well be the definition of var. ornata in the location). This photo, again from jupitersnest, shows a plant that appears to be the same expression but viewed by a lens in a different light. Importantly, note once again the yellow hood on the newly opening pitcher in the foreground http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

The question is often asked, "What are we to make of these Florida all-red specimens...?". Clearly there is a relationship between var. rugelii and var. rubricorpora in western Florida. Whether var. rubricorpora is a genotype expression of var. rugelii or visa versa is a chicken/egg situation currently. My opinion is the western Florida red forms are either variations within the wide variability of var. rubricorpora or the result of intergradation between local varieties that can present as an extension of var. ornata, albeit partly very red clones.

Worth looking at is this film, taken in August, of the Blackwater location featuring Carl Mazur. Note that the fully infused plants exhibit the very dark, purplish colouration as I highlighted in my earlier post, complete with the silvery sheen to the shoulders and mouth roll, as distinct from the east coast var. atropurpurea

If the western Florida plants in question, given the moniker "atropurpurea", developed the all red characteristic on their own, which I believe they did (most likely as an expression of genes in the region that gave rise to var. rubricorpora), that still makes them a separate lineage from the Carolina var. atropurpurea. It may well be they need a new variety handle all their own (possibly along the lines of the wide variety names in S.alata). Clearly, not least by virtue of geographical intimacy with one another, in the Carolinas var. atropurpurea is very closely related to var. flava and particularly var. cuprea. That intimacy does not extend to their relationship to north western Florida's var. rugelii and var. rubricorpora with those varieties existing with their own respective depth of relationship.

I can't help but feel Don Schnell's breakdown of the S.flava varieties remains as credible today as it did when published it in Carnivorous Plant Newsletter, 1998

http://www.carnivoro...n4p116_120.html

The first paragraph addresses the circumstances by which the free wheeling application of variety names comes about. Schnell follows with descriptions that more than adequately address the characteristics of the S.flava variants and, notably, where they exist. Indeed, as reinforcement of his descriptions, Schnell includes Fig 1. This photo is a line up of related S.flava varieties from the Carolinas with not a var. rugelii or var. rubricorpora in the bunch, naturally enough. This graphically highlights the pertinent relationships and geographical occurrence.

Schnell, for all his outstanding work, when formally publishing his description of var. rubricorpora was perhaps unaware that a proportion of the genetics that gave rise to the variety he named delivered up a percentage of the variety's population that became fully infused with red/purple in short order (as I've highlighted) despite their pitchers having clearly opened for business demonstrably as var. rubricorpora. It can only seem that if aware of that, he would certainly have recorded it in commensurate detail.

Interestingly, in Sarraceniaceae of North America mention is made of the differences between var. atropurpurea and var. rubricorpora in Schnell's 1978 work. Mention is also made of possible sightings of the later in North Carolina. But surely, if a colour combination that appeared as var. rubricorpora did occur in those instances, I suggest logic dictates that they could not be considered as intimately related to the acknowledged isolated variety of that name of NW Florida.

As it happens. var. cuprea is a good control in this respect. The variety is happily assigned as occurring in the Carolinas alone - as I submit needs to be the case for the closely related var. atropurpurea. There is no credible suggestion that var. cuprea exists in the Gulf Coast or NW Florida. Indeed, it seems accepted that if a individual in those locations was to be observed (and individuals superficially presenting that way can occur) it would be accorded the distinction of being a infraspecific hybrid rather than as a new discovery of var. cuprea outside its acknowledged range.

Partly on the strength of that, is one area where I am at variance with Don Schnell's 1998 work. I believe insufficient regard is given to all factors that contribute to unique genotypical expression of both colour and morphology and demarcated geographical occurrence. In reference to the aforementioned first paragraph of Sarracenia flava L. varieties, to base things solely on colour alone is too simplistic.

Whatever they may be, one thing the western Florida plants are not, is Atlantic Plain Sarracenia flava var. atropurpurea. That variety name should be reserved for those rare genetics alone.

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So, the blackwater atropurpureas are actually rubricorporas, in your opinion?

My opinion is the western Florida flava varieties are intimately related. In Okaloosa county, along with Liberty Co etc, that gives rise to the expression of var. rugelii and var. rubricorpora as well as infraspecific intermediate clones. The wide range of variability in var. rubricorpora delivers a full range of phenotypical colour infusion of varying degrees as noted by McPherson in Pitcher Plants of the Americas complete with photo line up to that affect. Not only that, but when first opened and for a time after that, the pitchers present as var. rubricorpora. Only when viewed later in their growth season, having transitioned to fully infused, some are noted as then var. atropurpurea. The photos I've supplied and referred to highlight this.

What I'm proposing is that the Blackwater plants, as any fully infused var. rubricorpora, stem from the genetics found in that region of S.flava range. Thereby, they are distinct from S.flava as found in the Carolinas, including the variety known as atropurpurea.

Then there is the legend of Carolina var. atropurpurea (significantly and ironically referred to as real atropurpurea) having been translocated from their natural habitat to the Blackwater bogs in the 1970's. In my view, with no evidence to support this it remains vague historic hearsay. And, in reality, of little value. Rather, consideration of the 'all red' clones in Okaloosa Co. needs, until DNA research can provide otherwise, to be founded on what is in evidence observationally rather than pondering romantic stories that muddy the waters. I have to say, I find it almost incomprehensible that no corroboration of this event taking place exists. Those that have visited the Blackwater sites will tell you they require a decent old journey through a challenging landscape to get to such is their isolation. Did someone really go to all that trouble, yet never let on; no one ever knew the details? Or, cultivate some of the plants they removed from Carolina var. atropurpurea populations? The practices of the 1970's with respect to Sarracenia required little need for clandestine activities.

All that alongside the existence of red flava phenotypes elsewhere in western Florida....

Edited by Kiwi Earl
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Thanks for the comprehensive reply. Apologies for asking the question again - I forgot all about the original thread.

But the again, if I hadn't brought it up again we wouldn't have gleamed all this information from you!

The only difficulty I'm having is with a rubricorpora plant that has coloured up to superficially appear to be an atropurpurea in appearance. Is making an identification based on newly opened pitchers that haven't coloured up fully the best method? Surely no atropurpurea can be identified with that method unless you knew what the pitcher looked like 3 weeks ago?

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Hi Alexis

A defining feature of the nominal Carolina var. atropurpurea is being red throughout the hood as the pitcher grows then opens. Jim Fowler's 2008 photos taken in the Green Swamp, NC exhibit this perfectly in this image and those var. atropurpurea ones that follow it in his series http://www.pbase.com/jimfowler/image/96651966

The same applies to the intimately related var. cuprea in the same location. See this photo of Fowler's taken on the same day as the var. atropurpurea ones http://www.pbase.com/jimfowler/image/96651847 Note the unopened var. cuprea pitcher on the right of the clump. The hood portion of the leaf is already infused prior to opening. When it does so, it will be like the infused hoods of the rest of the plant. Note also, the var. cuprea is growing right alongside a nominal var. flava indicative of the very close relationship.

That same infusion of hood colour prior to opening can be seen in this photo of a Carolina var. cuprea I grow

Cuprea131112copyJDBrookcMedium.jpg"]http://Cuprea131112copyJDBrookcMedium.jpg[/url]

The hoods of these Carolina varieties are not yellow then redden up as in the case of var. rubricorpora living alongside var. rugelii in NW Florida. As can be seen in my photos of directly wild location stock and photos of wild plants in situ, for a reasonable period after the pitcher has opened the hood is yellow with a degree of red veining and/or infusion. In some individuals the hood goes on to become fully infused over a period of weeks. Refer to my photos 1) & 2) of the same var. rubricorpora in my reply above to Martin - as I say, an individual cannot be two varieties during the season based merely on the time at which it is viewed. Especially when compared with something that grows elsewhere by the order of 700 miles.

Phenotypically, while sharing a base skin colour with them, I may go on to gain more of a tan than my genetic brother and sister under the same sun. But that doesn't alter that we are of the same ethnicity. As I colour up I don't progress to a different ethnicity in the short space of a summer.

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I agree with what you say, Kiwi Earl, and it's always been my understanding that the key identifying difference between atropurpurea and rubricorpora was the infusion of red pigment in the lid prior to or at opening regardless of it's subsequent colouration. If the lid starts green(ish) it is rubricorpora regardless how red it then gets because the difference is genetic while the similarity is phenotypic (if you get what I'm saying). It's a complete nonsense to say something like "in my conditions this clone is more atropurpurea for me" -You know who you are! A plant can only be one or the other in all situations.

However, I would say you can't use the distribution of forms to define a taxon at any level; merely to identify it (within all likelihood). So if any of the gulf coast "pseudo-atropurpureas" exhibited the proper lid-infusion (by which I mean throughout and to the same intensity as the pitcher tube) at their opening, they should then probably be included within atropurpurea or else classified as a separate variety because the lineage is distinct, which might prove tricky to define properly. Don't you agree?

Nonetheless, this thread highlights the importance of recording location data & pedigrees accurately and maintaining distinct lineages for future reference.

Back on topic... S. 'Waccamaw' looks a really really good cultivar, 'the definitive atropurpurea' you might say and I can't wait for it to become available here -I guess that could be a fair few years, yes?

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"It's a complete nonsense to say something like "in my conditions this clone is more atropurpurea for me" -You know who you are! A plant can only be one or the other in all situations"

What about var. ornata clones that remain heavily veined for the majority, until you grow them in a polyunnel with diffused light, when they appear as var. rubricorpora?

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Same thing.

Do the pitchers start ornata and diffuse red or do they start already red-tube in the poly-tunnel? I'm not being rhetorical here, I don't know. If it is the latter it does throw up some questions.

There's a strange kind of reverse of etiolation* growers are getting with the diffused light of polytunnels. Think of the same ornata plants growing in shade; are these var. flava or maxima? I would say not, just poorly growing ornata. Similarly these polytunnel red-tubes can be considered ecophenes of the variety ornata.

Alternatively we could do away with ornata as distinct entirely and just call them really poor rubricorpora. Actually, because of the naming priority rule, all the rubricorpora would technically then be included in ornata. Or we could do away with varieties altogether and refer to every S. flava as an S. flava (which you can legitimately do anyway) but then people will differentiate them as red-tube or heavily veined and so on, which is exactly what the scientific nomenclature aims to standardise and define in the first place... hmm bit of a circle!

It comes down to the genotype that we usually can't see, which is fixed and which theoretically, ideally, categorises the taxon -sp. ssp. var. etc. by assigning it to a defined group/range (but practically very rarely does so) versus the phenotype, which is how the genotype is expressed, what we can see & have to use most of the time to classify organisms. But it's only 99.9%** diagnostically reliable, less so in plants because they are so plastic in terms of developmental response to their environment.

Put another way, a clone cannot jump varieties because of where/how it grows. An ornata that has turned all-red is exactly that: an all-red ornata (daft as it may sound)

* -not exactly the correct term to use in this instance, I know.

** -yeah, I did just make that up.

Edited by Ordovic
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I agree with what you say, Kiwi Earl, and it's always been my understanding that the key identifying difference between atropurpurea and rubricorpora was the infusion of red pigment in the lid prior to or at opening regardless of it's subsequent colouration. If the lid starts green(ish) it is rubricorpora regardless how red it then gets because the difference is genetic while the similarity is phenotypic (if you get what I'm saying). It's a complete nonsense to say something like "in my conditions this clone is more atropurpurea for me" -You know who you are! A plant can only be one or the other in all situations.

However, I would say you can't use the distribution of forms to define a taxon at any level; merely to identify it (within all likelihood). So if any of the gulf coast "pseudo-atropurpureas" exhibited the proper lid-infusion (by which I mean throughout and to the same intensity as the pitcher tube) at their opening, they should then probably be included within atropurpurea or else classified as a separate variety because the lineage is distinct, which might prove tricky to define properly. Don't you agree?

Nonetheless, this thread highlights the importance of recording location data & pedigrees accurately and maintaining distinct lineages for future reference.

Back on topic... S. 'Waccamaw' looks a really really good cultivar, 'the definitive atropurpurea' you might say and I can't wait for it to become available here -I guess that could be a fair few years, yes?

You've put it well. The point I'm promoting is: whatever the NW Florida all reds are; however they phenotypically present, they are distinct from the very rare Carolina var. atropurpurea including by virtue of massive geographical isolation. On that front, by way of examining the significance of that isolative distance, although var. rugelii exists in Georgia, their are no var. rubricorpora present along with them as in the case of western Florida. In Georgia, should it be accepted both GA and FL var. rugelii are just that, var. rugelii, the expression of the genotype that gives rise to the intimately related phenotypical var. rubricorpora in western FL does not arise. I suggest this is more evidence that the reds in the later are a distinct local phenomenon. My proposition remains that if they require a variety name other than the intensely variable var. rubricorpora, (possibly along the lines of S.alata variety separation) then that name should not be var. atropurpurea.

As I said above, the lack of var. cuprea, entirely intimately related to Carolina var. atropurpurea, in western FL red populations again highlights the genetic isolation between the S.flava populations.

S.'Waccamaw' availability in the UK? Yes, likely a fair old while.

What about var. ornata clones that remain heavily veined for the majority, until you grow them in a polyunnel with diffused light, when they appear as var. rubricorpora?

It is vital to talk about plants growing nominally in the wild, or at least wild derived material unadulterated by the degree of atrificial influence on its growth as delivered by polytunnels, greenhouses etc. Everything I speak of can be observed in native habitats where the plants in question are found. Or not found, as the case may be...

Same thing.

Do the pitchers start ornata and diffuse red or do they start already red-tube in the poly-tunnel? I'm not being rhetorical here, I don't know. If it is the latter it.......

.......Put another way, a clone cannot jump varieties because of where/how it grows. An ornata that has turned all-red is exactly that: an all-red ornata (daft as it may sound)

Agreed.

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  • 1 year later...

Kiwi Earl's point was that a "true" atropurpurea should start with a red lid even when unopened, otherwise it'd be a rubricorpora (assuming it's a red tube). Mike's photo shows an unopened coloured (I won't say red) pitcher and lid which fits the condition.

 

I've crossed 2 cuprea this year to see if an atropurpurea is produced. Would be interesting if others could do the same experiment.

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