Typical Cephalotus discussion

[dimitar]

Well, I have seen some discussions in a lot threads about what is a typical Ceph and what isn't.

Dose any one have any thoughts on this? It would be interesting, thought...

[Veek]

I posted this in an other topic as some kind of answer to the question:

....

But to answer your question about what is typical ... difficult to answer. All the mediocre ones perhaps. But it takes a while before particular characteristics start to show. When I grew ceph from seed before I labeled it the name from whom I got the seeds. So I got an Cephalotus ADA1 and ADA2 and Cephalotus VL1 to VL17. It's more easy for me this way to know what plant is what instead of naming all of them typical. Maybe this could be a good practice for other people to do as well. We got rid of the word typical and at the same time you now a litlle something about the origins of the seeds.

[snapperhead51]

When we here in AU started with cephs long time back , now just talking here in South AU , dont get excited in the other AU states, We had just typical cephs, there were no names or so called verities, now talking back in before 1980 ish well even earlier thinking about it now I was 25 with my 1st Ceph and 57 now , from my dear departed Friend Fred Howell ,who was the pioneer here in South AU with cp's , some of you older guys may remember him when letters were the way to communicate !!.

Any how what has changed from that , is some enterprising peoples around giving them names , and by naming a ceph dose it make it then some thing else !! other then typical ? . and growing techniques have improved the size and colour and breeding has come into play.

So should there now be something to say or denote that a "cephalotus" that has been grown from seed is typical some thing ? or is in-fact a different ceph ??

Edited August 25, 2013 by snapperhead51

[dimitar]

Seedling plant from John Yates that I got some years ago, is this a typical?

Compared to Carniflora clone.

Any differences? What makes a typical I wonder?

[Malvo]

I know this sounds extremely simplistic (and i apologize, but i just got up so if this all sounds silly, just let me know) but in essence all cephalotus are typical, but off course the genetic variations on the plants (and how they are grown) cause them to have different colors/pitcher size etc.

I think that the naming comes in handy just to differentiate clones, so we understand we are not getting the same clone that xxx people and shops already have and that way we understand that we have a genetically different plant from the ones that might be very common commercially.

Does that mean everyone should just name every plant they feel like?

Of course not, that would just create mass confusion and chaos, and soon we would have gigantic lists, i think that genetic different cephalotus that present no differentiating characteristics (like pitcher size or color) should just be tagged like "ceph typical seed grown", and other that present enough unique or differentiating characteristics to be presented to a select group or the whole community so people could decide if it is indeed worthy of a name, or maybe just determine a group of characteristics (like a list that everyone agrees on) and if certain plant or clone presents all features on that list should be worthy of a name...just an idea.

But in the end, it's up to people to decide what should be done.

Regards!!

Edited August 25, 2013 by Malvo

[corky]

interesting topic,surely this can also be true to vft's grown from seed or any plant grown from seed that shows variation,the term typical would mean there are no special features to the plant,but whats special to one person may not be special to someone else,i think its good to name seed grown plants so you can keep genetic variety and make sure people are not buying the same clone

[mobile]

I have grown Cephalotus from seed and have seen variants in colour, pitcher size, shape etc, so it would appears that such variants are relatively common, as they are to a greater extent in VFT. Now, should I give those a name so I can distinguish them? A name would be useful for my purposes but without sending it out to multiple growers, with multiple growing conditions it's not possible to know whether it will retain the characteristics for others. If it does not, then is it simply a 'typical' - even though it doesn't have typical characteristics in my conditions?

One must also consider that when a Cephalotus is given a name, even a nickname, it instantly becomes collectable and thus demands a higher price. I don't want to get into the debate of 'value' as this has been had many times before on the forum, but if this named plant turns out to grow like a 'typical' for the buyer, then is that fair? And before someone pulls me up on this, yes I know that some growers actually send out none typical plants to others for just a small exchange of moneys or other plants.

There seems to be an increasing number of named varieties, with large pitchers or dark colouration, so are they more 'typical' than we think? Maybe small green/red pitchers are not 'typical'

[ada]

I think snapperhead is close to the mark in what he says.

Up until many growers get interested in growing plants(cephs in this case)every plant was wild and nature dictated which plants and seeds grew in a small area,so the looked and grew similar with the odd variation.(Typical)

When Man gets involved,he becomes more selective and more seedlings are allowed to survive than would normally in the wild,so a bigger variation of individuals becomes available where different characteristics begin to show. This is how clones and cultivars start,with the aid of man.

Then someone finds they can grow them really well,in optimum conditions and the plant responds by growing bigger and producing larger pitchers than it would normally or in the wild.This could be because it has been selectively breed or has better growing conditions.

This plant would have to be grown in many different conditions to see if it could replicate the larger pitchers consistantly,either way if has been man made it could be termed a cultivar(cultivated by man)

It could also be called a typical ceph that occasionally produces large pitchers given the right conditions.

I would refer to seed grown plants as seed grown with a code number and parentage details if known,then if they consistantly grew large in all conditions(or coloured up) the could be registered properly.

ada

[snapperhead51]

great and vaid points of view , all with merit ,

growing conditions,so every one can grow the same plant as the maker/seller, person who named it , to the same potential , this would be very hard, as every one has different growing conditions , things they do , watering , prime position, ect ectc, what I grow in my micro G/H climate will not be the same as what some one in the UK , EU or USA will be, there fore changing the growing habit of that plant , some one using artificial light and I use sun will have different outcomes as well .

how dose one control some ones else es growing conditions to mimic yours to get the same results ?? I think could would be quite hard to do.

so when you get a plant you seen growing , and you grow it ,and it dont grow like the sellers did, how do we define that ?? got a dud , crap plant , ripped off, seller will not give right growing info , and so on .

seems to be a very hard question to answer for me !!

[mobile]

snapperhead, I could probably create a very dark coloured Cephalotus by blasting it with LED lighting, UVB and chilling it at night. Now, would you consider that as being fair if I passed it on to another grower as a dark coloured plant? Would it be reasonable to expect the grower to replicate these conditions? I think that for a plant to be considered something other than 'typical' then the characteristics should be achievable across a reasonable range of conditions and not very specific ones.

[dimitar]

so when you get a plant you seen growing , and you grow it and it don't grow like the sellers did, how do we define that ?? got a dud , crap plant , ripped off, seller will not give right growing info and so on.

snapperhead, I could probably create a very dark coloured Cephalotus by blasting it with LED lighting, UVB and chilling it at night. Now, would you consider that as being fair if I passed it on to another grower as a dark coloured plant? Would it be reasonable to expect the grower to replicate these conditions? I think that for a plant to be considered something other than 'typical' then the characteristics should be achievable across a reasonable range of conditions and not very specific ones.

You are both right!

Well, thinking about this, I would ask Stephen and hope to get answers if possible.

Stephen, are u blasting Eden Black with LED lighting, UVB, HPS or other stuff like that to get black color?

Why people that has Eden Black Cephs, can't get this color? What's wrong with them and their conditions?

What do u do which the rest skip?

What do u use what they don't use?

Correct me if I wrong but I don't believe that Eden Black has black color under your condition year round or?

Please, can u give more info in this direction?

Thanks .

[eriomix]

From what I read and have seen Eden Black has black color only in Stephen's conditions, so why you say that a clone must have certain characteristics in order to give it a name that isn't typical?

[ada]

Dimitar, I have been to Stephens many times.i can't answer for him but i can tell you what i have seen.

Stephen grows his plants in a normal greenhouse,lined with bubblewrap.This may filter the light the plant receives.He keeps it at a minimum 5 degrees in winter.Every thing else i would consider normal growing conditions.

When i have seen Eden Black,it is true it isn't always black.

This could be for a number of reasons,one is the demand for this plant.He is continually asked for it.Pulling leaves off the main plant probably stresses it so it can't settle down to achieve its really dark colour.

Another reason is cephs usually colour up best in the late autumn or winter when they are exposed to a temperature drop,at least here in England they do,and no one wants to go visiting on cold winters days,do they?

Again i can't show images of my plant as it is only just producing its first mature pitchers(still small)but come autumn i will post some if you wish to show its colour then.My plants are subject to frost though if this makes a difference.

ada

[snapperhead51]

Carl I am with you , I dont dispute what your saying , I have no trouble doing what I want here either, and reading my post I see what you mite disagree with , I didn't Finish my last bit correctly , was tired and missed my own point I think .will correct it . sorry about that .

not every one has your experience in growing ! , , I find even here trying to get some to do things to grow there cephs is like hitting your head against the brick wall , telling, showing, explaining , but its just not happening , mainly cause they dont want to spend the extra $ to do it correctly., or it just to hard.

and not every one can afford to either.or just dont have the time, space or dedication to do so . or other things.

I buy it should grow attitude it seems in a lot of cases ! may be wrong!

For me , if I got a plant from you with instructions , then that's what I would do and if it didn't work would try things till it did ,mainly cause I reasonably know what to do , but some one with beginner knowledge or only have 1 or 2 cephs in there collection for a few years , possibly !! would not know how to make it happen , if it went a bit wrong , even with instructions

Like EB , when my F1 EB 's comes out of T/C will try to get some colour into them , have a few idea's, but will just have to see what works in my G/h unknown factor !

We deal with many cp growers and plant enthusiasts here , helping and explaining and even here many have trouble growing the cephs , where for me its grab a bit here stick in a pot put in the G/H and it grows simple as that , , but its not . its a lot of back ground knowledge behind that , watering , media I use, sun I give, shade I give , positions I put particular plants to do certain things , so on .

As you do , I know , your plants dont grow well because you just put them in a window and say grow , its a lot of work and growing experience / knowledge behind that , passing that on is not all ways easy I find , here any how .

Is this getting away from what we want to discuss ?? or is it still part of "" what is a typical "" ??

who ever put all these emotions in , did a great job , so cool thanks !

Edited August 26, 2013 by snapperhead51

[Marcus B]

From what I read and have seen Eden Black has black color only in Stephen's conditions, so why you say that a clone must have certain characteristics in order to give it a name that isn't typical?

I can’t speak about EB, but Son of EB (RIP L),from my observations, certainly showed the same tendency under different conditions on the other side of the planet, so the colouration is a genetic trait. I am hoping that one of my EB x EB seedlings will do likewise.

The problem with Cephs is that sometimes the defining characteristic can be a tendency to show certain traits more readily. For example my Giant (syn Hummer’s) had a tendency to produce larger pitchers under good conditions, but at times it looks no different to a Typical, which, under ideal conditions will also produce large pitchers. The Giant does it more readily and consistently, both for myself and others.

Some of my other Typicals at times produce distinctively domed lids, but my Walpole plants (two different clones) do it consistently. All photos that I have seen of plants from this area show the some distinction.

My Fred Howell clones are from a plant that just looked like an over grown pot of a Typical Ceph. The trait that was being discussed was the plant’s tendency to grow very rapidly and to survive things that damage other Cephs. I was given three good leaves. Given the success rate that I have had with leaves I was hoping to get a few more, but I was assured that they would grow easily. Now I have three rapidly growing plants. The growth rate trait is apparent under my different conditions, so I will be keeping those plants labelled as “FH”, even though I consider it to be a Typical.

I have another clone that is labelled “Red form”. It is from the same stock as a number of my other plants, but the grower selected it out because it seemed to colour up more easily. Others have grown it and found it to be no different to the parent plant line. For me it does seem to colour up a little more readily, but not enough to consider it to be a worthwhile distinction. It is no longer sold by the original grower for that reason. It has failed the test of time and different conditions.

As we select for certain traits we are likely to see others emerge. At this stage the as far as I am concerned the naming is really only useful to enable those who wish to, to source plants of (hopefully) different genetic backgrounds.

Cephs are variable even within the same clone and often the same plant from one year to the next, even if in the same growing position, if not under controlled conditions. This it will continue to make it hard to define what is typical and what is not unless there is a clear departure from the “norm”.

Part of the issue is that most plants in cultivation may be from certain areas. It may be that there are other locations where there are plants that will show different traits, such as the Walpole plants domed lids. However, until such plants are found and grown our understanding of what is typical is limited to the tendencies of the plants that we have. Of course then removing the material from a new location is no guarantee that it is not something about that location that produces a different trait and to the resulting plants are no different to others.

Growing Cephs is a challenge and we need to accept that the traits that appear in our plants may not show up when they are relocated and therefore are merely variation in response to environment and not as special as we would like them to be. Labelling different plants is helpful to enable us to distinguish between the different clones in our collects so that we don’t make the mistake of selling off all of our possible variation, but unless it is really worthy of being a cultivar it ought not to make them worth any more. Wishful thinking?

[gardenofeden]

I think that colour in Cephalotus is partly dependant on genetics and partly dependant on growing conditions. We all know that a well coloured clone will be bigger and greener in the shade.

I grow my 'Eden Black' in a greenhouse, full sun all day, standing in water in summer, kept frost free in winter. No supplementary lighting. Light levels in Yorkshire can be quite low at times, and as Ada said I also have bubble plastic insulation which diffuses the light a bit.

Is the colour consistent? Well up until last summer 2012 I would have said an unequivocal yes. 2012 summer was cool with very little sun, and all my plants showed less colour ( Cephs and Sarras). My Sarras have coloured up quickly this summer, and my Cephs are just starting to colour up properly, especially as we are having hot summer days and cool nights starting.

Experience if a number of growers shows that colour in many of our CPs is better with hot days and cool nights, but you have to have the genetic potential first. Even last summer with the crap weather my 'Eden Black' were darker than my other clones, even if they were not as dark as normal.

How long to wait until deciding that a plant is special and worth naming? I grew 'Eden Black' for about 20 years before deciding it was special...of course I had doubts and concerns that the traits would not be repeatable with other people, but 20 odd years of growing the plant alongside several other clones, in the same conditions, compost, pots, light convinced me that this cv is consistently darker than the other plants I grow. Having very dark coloured offspring like "son of Eden Black" pop up from seed also helps reinforce this.

[petesredtraps]

Eden Black is also a "tough" plant, in that dreadful winter when my entire Ceph collection got wiped out (I think the same thing happened to Ada) Eden Black was the only plant that survived, of course I'm extremely thankful for that. Now I will allow my Cephs to tollerate a few frosts ,and then in they come.

[mobile]

I've seen some growlists containing many of the different clones of Cephalotus. Maybe someone is growing them all under similar conditions and can post comparison pictures one day? Maybe grouped into characteristics, e.g. the dark clones Eden Black, Triffid Albany Black, Queen Mary etc and the large clones e.g. Hummer's Giant, German Giant, Big Boy etc.

[ada]

Stephen, do you think your compost,being peat free has anything to do with it?i think most people will be using peat mixtures in europe to grow their plants in.

pete, yes,i lost them all but two.One was Dudley watts,one of the parents of Eden Black and the other was Hummers giant.

These were reduced to tiny root cuttings which i managed to pull through.

I now have a growing collection of small cephs all roughly the same size,so maybe i will be able to do what Carl says and post some comparable pictures as they grow to maturity.

ada

[gardenofeden]

You are both right!

Why people that has Eden Black Cephs, can't get this color? What's wrong with them and their conditions?

.

From what I read and have seen Eden Black has black color only in Stephen's conditions,

welll first I've heard of this.. Do people who got the plant off me not get good colour?

I've seen some growlists containing many of the different clones of Cephalotus. Maybe someone is growing them all under similar conditions and can post comparison pictures one day? Maybe grouped into characteristics, e.g. the dark clones Eden Black, Triffid Albany Black, Queen Mary etc and the large clones e.g. Hummer's Giant, German Giant, Big Boy etc.

yes, good idea, especially as colour is relative, eg post pics of Eden Black next to Hummers Giant as a "standard" perhaps....

[gardenofeden]

Stephen, do you think your compost,being peat free has anything to do with it?i think most people will be using peat mixtures in europe to grow their plants in.

ada

perhaps....but Moorland Gold is soooo low in nutrients due to water leaching and is mostly peat anyway. Perhaps I need to grow 10 plants each in peat, moorland gold and sphagnum for a few years and see how they do...

[dimitar]

welll first I've heard of this.. Do people who got the plant off me not get good colour?

At least people that I know who has EB never get black color.

Anyway, besides your pics I know only about 2 people who has reached almost your color,

Will quote them and their pics as follow:

1. Sean - and his dead plant the son of EB.

2. Forum moderator Mobile with his Ceph " tank Ceph 2" sibling to C. "EB"

Has anyone else guys that has similar color? Please, share your pics if u have.

Thanks

P.S sorry to moderators that I change the meaning of the thread about what is typical Ceph.

Edited August 26, 2013 by dimitar

[Marcus B]

I have found that my plants will colour up differently seemingly depending on the size of the pot. My big pot of Giant rarely gets very dark in colour, while the smaller pots colour up very well but often don't get as big. Another grower had a plant that I supplied him with, 12 months before hand, that had very dark large pitchers. He has a much better set up for growing Cephs and brought out the plant's potential in both colour and size.

I would expect the same thing to happen with EB. Some people will be better able to bring out the full potential due to their set ups, while others cannot. It does not change the fact that the genetic potential is there and it is worthy of it being recognised.

[dimitar]

I would expect the same thing to happen with EB. Some people will be better able to bring out the full potential due to their set ups, while others cannot. It does not change the fact that the genetic potential is there and it is worthy of it being recognised.

Pics, Markus, pics are needed..... without pics we can talk a lot...

Markus, don't think that people who have EB don't have experience and are newbies.

If someone doesn't have suitable conditions for EB ok, but not all people have unsuitable conditions different than those where the mother plant EB is in UK...

I lot people have EB already, so at least some of them would have black color but I don't know such people, do you know?

If someone has reached black color of his EB, do u think that he will show it?

Probably many people are shy and that's why they keep silence, who knows, maybe this is the reason for not to see results...

Just my 2 cents u know

Edited August 27, 2013 by dimitar

[gardenofeden]

Yes I agree it would be good to get feedback from growers of 'Eden Black' to get a fair idea of diversity of colour achieved. There must be at least 50 people growing it now.