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VFT patches updates?!

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Just got an Email from Dr. Andreas Fleischmann about the patches. he dont think that it is a virus and explained why. I asked him if he can write something here because my english is not good enough to translate this into English...

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Just got an Email from Dr. Andreas Fleischmann about the patches. he dont think that it is a virus and explained why. I asked him if he can write something here ...

That would be great. :smile: I look forward to reading Dr. Fleischmann's comments and reasoning, if he is willing to share his thoughts for consideration and possible discussion. I'm also curious as to whether Dr. Fleishmann believes the variegation in the leaves/traps of Patches has a different microbial cause, or whether he believes that it is genetic in origin.

The famous historical "tulipomania" valued certain "broken" (variegated) tulips at incredibly high prices. It was later discovered that the striking, streaked multicolored petals of those tulips were due to the plant being infected with a type of "mosaic" virus (there are many mosaic viruses, but unlike most, this one affects tulips).

There are some ornamental plants that are cultivated for their variegation despite the knowledge that the characteristic is caused or might be caused by a virus, including some camellias and bromeliads in cultivation, and other plants the natural versions of which rarely have variegation.

Edited by FlytrapRanch

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Interesting subject

So would that mean Peters plant is "curing" itself seeing as it getting less patches each year..

I always thought the red pigment on a green plant was a result of how much sunlight it got, antho free plants aside obviously....

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Interesting subject

So would that mean Peters plant is "curing" itself seeing as it getting less patches each year..

I always thought the red pigment on a green plant was a result of how much sunlight it got, antho free plants aside obviously....

Not at all, as with all colorations on VFTs lots of sunlight is a must, and,as I'm sure you recall,last year sunshine-wise we got less than bugger all.

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Jens sent me the email from Dr. Fleishmann. I had a go at translating it. This is the original:

Hallo Jens,

Ich denke nicht, dass es sich bei dieser panaschierten Dionaea um eine

virale Infektion handelt. Denn dann wären diese Flecken immer in etwa

gleich groß, und zudem nicht ausschließlich auf die Fallen beschränkt.

Auch das Wachstum wäre bei einem Virus langfristig beinflusst. Es

handelt sich dabei offentlich um eine Mutante mit gestörter

Anthocyan-Synthese, das heißt, bei der Entwicklung der Fallen werden

schon in den wachsenden Zellen nur in bestimmten, kleinen Bereichen rote

Farbstoffe gebildet. Das stimmt auch mit deiner Beobachtung überein,

dass nur ausgewachsene Fallen dieses Muster zeigen.

Das ist ganz ähnlich wie panaschierte Pflanzen, bei denen das grüne

Chlorophyll in bestimmten Bereichen der Blätter fehlt (es gibt sogar

eine Nepenthes-Hybride mit diesem Merkmal).

Man könnte einen potentiellen Virus in der Pflanze tatsächlich am

besten immunologisch nachweisen, wie Andreas Wistuba das beschrieben

hat. Das Erbgut von Viren in Pflanzengewebe nachzuweisen, ist sehr

schwierig (vor allem, wenn man nicht weiß, nach was für einem Virus man

genau suchen möchte).

Schöne Grüße,

Andreas

This was my best guess at the translation:

I do not think that the variegated Dionaea is a viral infection. If

it were an infection, then these spots would always be about the same

size and also not limited to only appearing in the traps. The growth

would also be affected in the long term if it were a virus. This is

most likely a mutant with impaired anthocyanin synthesis that occurs

during the development of the traps causing only certain small areas

to form anthocyanin. This is consistent with your observation that

the variegation only appears in adult plants. This is very similar to

variegated plants in which the green chlorophyll is missing in certain

areas of the leaves (there is even one Nepenthes hybrid with this

trait).

One could best demonstrate a potential virus in the plant

immunologically, as Andreas Wistuba has described. Detection of the

genetic material of viruses in plant tissue is very difficult

(especially if you do not know exactly what the virus might look

like).

Kind regards,

Andreas

When he writes "One could best demonstrate a potential virus in the plant

immunologically" I believe he means that the potential of a virus could be demonstrated by seeing if the variegation could be transmitted through exposing another plant to the fluids from "Patches" by breaking a leaf on each plant and rubbing them together.

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Immunologically means the use of antibodies specific for the virus to bind to it. Immunocytologically methods then involve a fluorescent marker or gold particles to bind to this antibody to reveal the presence and distribution of the virus in the cell (in vivo).

or the use of ELISA (enzyme linked immunosorbant assay) to determine its presence invitro.

but I know little about the latter

Edited by mantrid

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Thanks for translating the mail Matt.

Hope this is OK for Andreas if he read it...

For me it is clear, and i hope for the other people here too. patches is not infected by a virus.

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Last year my "Patches" produced a flower stalk, I nipped it off and stuck in the soil next to the mother plant ,the flower stalk took ,as did nearly all my flower stalks last year. Today I examined the little cutting which all top growth had died, and there were the first signs of new growth, it'll be interesting to see how this plant turns out. Geoff did once tell me that "Patches" can only be reproduced by back bulb division,so I wait and see how the little cutting turns out.

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For me it is clear, and i hope for the other people here too. patches is not infected by a virus.

No quite, someones theory without scientific evidence to back it up is not sufficient to draw a firm conclusion. If this was the case then we would all still believe the earth is flat and everything in the universe revolves around it

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Last year my "Patches" produced a flower stalk, I nipped it off and stuck in the soil next to the mother plant ,the flower stalk took ,as did nearly all my flower stalks last year. Today I examined the little cutting which all top growth had died, and there were the first signs of new growth, it'll be interesting to see how this plant turns out. Geoff did once tell me that "Patches" can only be reproduced by back bulb division,so I wait and see how the little cutting turns out.

Yeah me too, planted out the first dozen of them cultured from explant(leaves)

IMG_0152.jpg?m=1363634290

If this was the case then we would all still believe the earth is flat

Isn´t it flat? Damn i missed it :P

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Isn´t it flat? Damn i missed it :P

Yes not alot of people know this but its true

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Yeah me too, planted out the first dozen of them cultured from explant(leaves)

IMG_0152.jpg?m=1363634290

Splendid, let's see how they turn out. By the way Jens, your "growlist" link isn't working.

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Although I realize that mine is an unpopular view among those who like "Patches" (or "Spotty," or "Charlie Mandon's Spotted," or other variegated Venus Flytraps), I believe that the variegation is caused by a virus.

I agree that the plants and the coloration are attractive; I just don't believe that the variegation is part of the plant's own genetic code. I'm hopeful that a mere statement of my opinion won't start too contentious a discussion of the issue. :smile:

the way you see things brings nothing to the beauty of the plant

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Although I realize that mine is an unpopular view among those who like "Patches" (or "Spotty," or "Charlie Mandon's Spotted," or other variegated Venus Flytraps), I believe that the variegation is caused by a virus.

I agree that the plants and the coloration are attractive; I just don't believe that the variegation is part of the plant's own genetic code. I'm hopeful that a mere statement of my opinion won't start too contentious a discussion of the issue. :smile:

I have 3 spotted dionaeas grown from seed, selected between hundreds of other seedlings, they were the only showing spots...so I don't think it's a virus..

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I have 3 spotted dionaeas grown from seed, selected between hundreds of other seedlings, they were the only showing spots...so I don't think it's a virus..

There are quite a few variegated Venus Flytraps now in cultivation. I wonder how many variegated Venus Flytraps exist in the wild, in their own native environment.

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I have 3 spotted dionaeas grown from seed, selected between hundreds of other seedlings, they were the only showing spots...so I don't think it's a virus..

Quoted from here:

http://www.flytrapcare.com/phpBB3/post126496.html#p126496

"Doesn't rule out a virus (certain types of viruses integrate into the genome, and could then be passed on right through sexual reporduction), but it does mean it's less likely, I think."

And to echo that point, I've read about how viruses can be transmitted even through sexual reproduction.

Edited by mmlr38

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Yes, carnivorous plants virus is very dangerous, it takes you from no where, you didn't see it coming and you've got it until the end of your life! :pleasantry:

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Quoted from here:

http://www.flytrapca...96.html#p126496

"Doesn't rule out a virus (certain types of viruses integrate into the genome, and could then be passed on right through sexual reporduction), but it does mean it's less likely, I think."

And to echo that point, I've read about how viruses can be transmitted even through sexual reproduction.

I spoke with a friend of mine who studied like agrarian, and told me something about transposons and how they work (in that case, they don't work). Why should it be only a virus? Just saying ;)

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Hi Yuri!

I'm not saying it is a virus. I'm only saying it MAY BE a virus (though Steve seems pretty convinced it is). In 2010, I spent a lot of time reading about plant viruses and contacted my college roommate who studied plant pathology in graduate school. I don't remember everything I read or heard now (2.5 years later), but I do remember coming to the conclusion that the variegation seen in most flytraps (at the time) is probably caused by a virus.

John Brittnacher mentioned the idea of transposons back in 2010. I quoted him here:

http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39319&st=20#entry288085

I'm not sure we'll ever really know whether or not it is a virus unless someone is willing to spend a lot of money to get a variegated plant tested for lots of different viruses. That seems unlikely.

Regardless of the risk (or perhaps completely ignorant of it), it seems like many people really want the variegated plants and don't seem to care about the risk. Hopefully it doesn't result in lots of variegated or sickly flytraps!

Edited by mmlr38

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If I remember right this discussion began a few years back when a 'disease' swept through vft collections in Europe. A certain amount of panic arose about it being a virus. At the time I doubted it being a virus and it was eventually confirmed it was a bacterial/fungal infection (i cannot remember which).

IMHO it is not a virus in 'Patches' and I have done many many tests trying to cross infect etc. These plants grew happily with many other varieties for nearly 10 years without a problem. In all this time the patches were always within the traps, never on any other part of the plant.

I also had patches on traps as small as 4mm. It seems the amount of nutrient within the growing media affected the patches production. The older mix without fertilizer produced the better patches.

Geoff

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It seems the amount of nutrient within the growing media affected the patches production. The older mix without fertilizer produced the better patches.

Geoff

Very interesting Geoff,as last year I had repotted my plant and it didn't patch up as well as the previous year, also last summer was terrible. This year I'm doing no repotting on the VFTs, so I'll pay special attention to the Patches especially the little baby one from last years' flower stalk.

Anyway nice to see you posting again Geoff, how are things in general? I think the last time we spoke you were developing an even bigger nursery.

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Hi

My patches are doing great. Still no real summer here but the plants make nice traps. Even the small ones.

They even love the fertiliser

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Mine's vigorous and patching up nicely at the moment, I'll snap some more pictures. Where did the little on come from? I have a little one from last years flower stalk, but it's too small at the moment to see if it'll start patching up, unlike yours it's already showing some little patches.

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