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Kevin Tonnerre

Pinguicula christinae

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So, the third butterwort of the Appenine Mountains (after P. mariae and P. apuana) has been described. Does anybody speak italian well enough to enlighten me on some ongoing discussions? ;-)

Id like some more information on this species, for example if it was even considered to be a hybrid of P. mariae and P. apuana before making it a new specimen.

And while i do have quite accurate location information, how widespread is it actually?

Whats the chromosome count?

Funny how south of the alps is where speciatian in the genus seems most probable, but northwards, not much going on, at least on the section Pinguicula. But of course theres still much to discover in east europe and asia and judging from a few pics i have seen, one might also have a closer look at western USA/Canada.

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Hello Kevin,

Did you get the article? I could not get access to it yet.

Id like some more information on this species, for example if it was even considered to be a hybrid of P. mariae and P. apuana before making it a new specimen.

Following what have been said, its distribution area does not meet the one of P. mariae but the one of P. apuana yes. And it is said that there are some hybrids between P. christinae and P. apuana. The exact origin of P. christinae wasn't discussed on the fora.

And while i do have quite accurate location information, how widespread is it actually?

This point is greatly discussed on the fora. Its southern limit is the Appenins in Pistoia and Bologna province. The northern limit is yet unclear and it seems to nearly reach the French border. However, they told about several new taxa (yet undescribed) in the Appenins so that the distribution of each one is not totally clear up to now.

Funny how south of the alps is where speciatian in the genus seems most probable, but northwards, not much going on, at least on the section Pinguicula. But of course theres still much to discover in east europe and asia and judging from a few pics i have seen, one might also have a closer look at western USA/Canada.

Not really surprising as most mountain habitats around Mediterranean see are geographically isolated, and then genetically isolated. Those habitats are then areas of great endemism (see the case of Sierra Nevada in Spain). Moreover, some zones where refuges for species with "tropical" afinities during glaciar ages, so that each ancestral Pinguicula populations could be genetically isolated (Pinguicula reichenbachiana occures in one of this refuges for example).

I don't think the Alps is less concerned by speciation. Pinguicula reichenbachiana, P. leptoceras, P. poldinii, P. arvetii, P. grandiflora subsp. rosea (not yet a species, but a future one evolutionary speaking) are exemples of endemism from the Alps. And there are more to come.

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"Following what have been said, its distribution area does not meet the one of P. mariae but the one of P. apuana"

for me it is not the same distribution area , P.maria and P.apuana are calcareous species , P.christinae more siliceous like I have seen in 2011 ' in situ'

P.mariae and P.apuana more in the alpi apuana in toscane , P.christinae more in emilie- romagne or in the margin to the toscane

"Whats the chromosome count?"

2n = 64

" P.arvetii "

difficult to determine this specie or find 'in situ'

"P. grandiflora subsp. rosea "

I have find this subsp in pyrenées in 2012 on a P.grandiflora subsp grandiflora area , why ? for me she is more a grandiflora variety or form.

jeff

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Did you get the article? I could not get access to it yet.

No, i dont have it.

Following what have been said, its distribution area does not meet the one of P. mariae but the one of P. apuana yes.

Interesting, i have a location data of P. mariae pretty close to P. christinae. But it looks like ill have to double check my mailbox to verify if i made any mistakes when writing down the locations (or maybe the person that told me made a mistake).

And by the way, very interesting to know, that there are also some groups of white flowered P. christinae!

Edited by Kevin Tonnerre

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E-mail sent. You have it now.

I checked my data. I have one location of P. christinae in the Alpi Apuane. This is doubtful as it can be easily confused with P. apuana. Both are really variable, not really being true species. A surprising fact is that P. christinae appears three times in their determination key! Quite bizarre for a true species.

I also have one location of P. mariae in the Appenins close to P. christinae locations (it is marked as possibly belonging to P. mariae). So that my assertion was something wrong.

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Arggghhh Fernando! I can't. I have accepted that P. apuana, P. christinae and even P. arvetii are not true species but this would be too much for me, you're gonna killing me :moderator:

lol :lol:

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for me christinae is different to apuana in the throat

christianae in alpi apuane , where?

mariae in apennin , where?

FERNANDO you have others infos on this christinae?

mariae :2n=32 it is not a vulgaris , avertii may be a leptoceras the morphological description is

too succinct and is not the same from one person to another .

for me the document is too succinct also for this christinae , no perennity and reproductibility test for these morphological caracters ,no dna ,etc .

may be a vulgaris but a subsp - var or f , in taxonomy these infra-rank exist !!!!!!!

damage in the classification of Mexican ping, these infra rank

are rarely used, but it is true, there is still a lot of grain to grind :bomb:

jeff

Edited by jeff 1

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