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Gareth Davies

N lamii (Doorman's Top 1)

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It's about time I made a confession. There's one species that has totally defeated me.

N northiana- no problem at all.

N pervillei- pitchering nicely for me.

N villosa- slow but steady progress

But N lamii (Wistuba's Doorman's Top 1)- and I really hope Andreas isn't reading this- I've murdered two and I'm now on my 3rd. My new one has stayed alive with me for over 3 weeks now, which is a lot better than the last one. It's certainly no fault of Andreas, they arrive healthy enough, but then deteriorate rapidly in my care.

Before, I've treated it like villosa- as cold as possible- and have had negative results. (Euphemism for a sad empty pot, then some wailing and gnashing of teeth.)

Keeping this one a bit warmer- around 13C at night, mid 20s by day, has kept it alive for a little longer....

Has anyone, anyone at all, had any success with this one? And by "success", I mean "kept it alive for more than a couple of months"?

Maybe even got it to increase in size?

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I've kept mine alive for a few months, but that's about it haha! (yes, it didn't grow at all)

I had mine in 75ish by day, 60ish by night... but people told me I killed it by doing that and not bringing it down to almost freezing at night.

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I've kept mine alive for a few months, but that's about it haha! (yes, it didn't grow at all)

I had mine in 75ish by day, 60ish by night... but people told me I killed it by doing that and not bringing it down to almost freezing at night.

So, including me, two of us voting that it doesn't need freezing temperatures!

Mine both died with nights down to 10C (50F), days around 17 (65F). I have a feeling that it might need hot days- and so far my experience is that it's not dying with nights around 13c (55F).

It's possible that we are extrapolating too much from villosa. Just because villosa is a sod to grow, and needs a massive temperature drop every day, it doesn't mean that others eg lamii, need the same treatment. Other ultrahighlanders, say densiflora, singalana, edwardsiana, are very happy with highland or even intermediate temperatures.

At the moment, I'll settle for my new one surviving, then I'll worry about increases in size later. Hoping someone out there has some positive experience.....

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Why not ask Andreas precisely what conditions he is keeping them in.

I only bought one quite recently so can't offer anything constructive at the moment, but I never place new plants into extreme (or supposedly ideal) conditions until they have settled.

I have grown the BE plant for a number of years (I assume is now known as N.monticola and not quite so high altitude) and it grows fine with villosa etc.

I really do not think that non extreme conditions would kill a plant very quickly.

Average HL to ultra HL conditions are hardly likely to be harmful to such a plant, not ideal maybe? but not fatal.

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Why not ask Andreas precisely what conditions he is keeping them in.

I only bought one quite recently so can't offer anything constructive at the moment, but I never place new plants into extreme (or supposedly ideal) conditions until they have settled.

I have grown the BE plant for a number of years (I assume is now known as N.monticola and not quite so high altitude) and it grows fine with villosa etc.

I really do not think that non extreme conditions would kill a plant very quickly.

Average HL to ultra HL conditions are hardly likely to be harmful to such a plant, not ideal maybe? but not fatal.

I have no idea how I have managed to kill two in pretty ordinary conditions. It makes me think this one hates me.

Both just rotted out quickly- I'd love to know how I screwed up.

I've never had any other species do this to me!

Now- what WAS lamii from BE- and is now monticola- does loads better as an intermediate-highland in my hands. (Nights 15C, days mid 20s.) After a year of faffing around, this is now doing much better for me. I'm told that this one has a wide range, and the TC plants come from the lower elevations of the range. So, while we think it might do best next to villosa, it might do better as an intermediate. I'll report back in a year!

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So, including me, two of us voting that it doesn't need freezing temperatures!

Mine both died with nights down to 10C (50F), days around 17 (65F). I have a feeling that it might need hot days- and so far my experience is that it's not dying with nights around 13c (55F).

It's possible that we are extrapolating too much from villosa. Just because villosa is a sod to grow, and needs a massive temperature drop every day, it doesn't mean that others eg lamii, need the same treatment. Other ultrahighlanders, say densiflora, singalana, edwardsiana, are very happy with highland or even intermediate temperatures.

At the moment, I'll settle for my new one surviving, then I'll worry about increases in size later. Hoping someone out there has some positive experience.....

Yeah, I mean, campanulata, pervillei, and clipeata just to name a few Lowlanders that should want it super hot grow just fine as intermediates and actually prefer those conditions in cultivation from everything I've heard. So why wouldn't it be that lamii and some other UHLers (like aristolochioides and inermis? They appear to like intermediate temps better for me) take different climates in cultivation too? I figure if nobody's figured it out yet, I might as well experiment. I grow on a balcony outside in San Diego, so I get to see everything how it grows in the range LL -> UHL. I got the lamii during intermediate-ish weather.

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I tried a wistuba lamii a few years back, it survived for 1 or 2 years under highland conditions but never really got going and eventually rotted away, it was very small on arrival. My guess was it was either short of light or day temps werent consistently high enough but i never got another one to try. Didn't someone post a pic on cpuk a while back with a decent sized lamii? Seem to remember seeing one.

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Hi there,

I grow N. lamii (spec. Doorman's Top 1) for over 2 years now. It was already about 5cm in diameter when it got some scales on it and decreased in size again. I will post my conditions and a picture tomorrow.

Kind regards

Marc

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Ok, progress report. I've had this nearly a month now.

15C nights (I can't get the greenhouse any colder when nights are around 12 outside.)

Days 20-25, sometimes a little higher.

Medium: mostly perlite, sieve with a kitchen sieve to get rid of any fine bits. Touch of peat.

It's still with me and has grown very slightly.

lamii2-1.jpg

Edited by Gareth Davies

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about the time, when I got the plant.

gallery_3714_93_126091.jpg

after half a year or nearly a year

gallery_3714_93_139698.jpg

after a year or even more (got scales and more light-> moved to a new terrarium)

gallery_3714_93_66032.jpg

half year later

gallery_3714_93_233917.jpg

some pitcher pictures

gallery_3714_93_47826.jpg

gallery_3714_93_39628.jpg

I still have to take a recent picture...

Conditions:

50-90% humidity

Day: summer max. 27°C, av. 25°C - winter max. 21°C, av. 15°C

Night: summer min. 16°C, max. 20°C, av. 18°C - winter min. 4°C, av. 12°C

light: 3x 70W HCI (~100 lumen/W)

terrarium: 1,2m x 0,6m x 1,2m (high)

air flow: 12cm PC fan min. 15-45min. constant airflow in 1h

substrat: pure sphagnum with a bit of sand, "drainage": seramis, pinebark, some peat

Kind regards

Marc

Edited by Marc S.

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Marc- without anyone else wants to claim the prize, I think you're world expert at growing the genuine N lamii.

Also, it's possible you've got one of the very few surviving plants.

I wonder if this is like commercial production of villosa- thousands sold, most die.

Many thanks for posting your conditions. I have a feeling that we don't need to keep these plants as cold as the rumours suggest... and if we can keep them alive, there's room for adjustments to conditions...

My experience is that colder than your conditions kills the things.

Let's hope we start to see gradual increases in size from now on....

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Hi,

thanks for those kind words - but I think there must be more growers, which are also succesful in growing this species!?

Here are some recent pics...

gallery_3714_93_102327.jpg

The pitcher size is now 2 cm!

gallery_3714_93_15851.jpg

Cheers

Marc

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So it can be done...

Excellent stuff Marc.

Mine is still alive too... and growing slowly... its 2nd leaf since I've had it....

My current theory is that my previous efforts died because I was keeping them too cold, and although that might be fine for more mature plants (well we can dream of mature plants), nights around 12-15 and days around 20-25 suit baby plants quite well.

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Hi!

I was going to update my code database with this "BE N. lamii = N. monticola", but I can't find any other reference to this opinion a part from this thread. Is there any actual reason to think this is true, except the way this plant responds in cultivation?

Thanks

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Hi!

I was going to update my code database with this "BE N. lamii = N. monticola", but I can't find any other reference to this opinion a part from this thread. Is there any actual reason to think this is true, except the way this plant responds in cultivation?

Thanks

Good point. I was going by Stew's New Nepenthes Vol 1 book. In there, he points out that what was previously named lamii is now monticola. I'm guessing that both BE and AW's monticola derive from the same source. BE say on their list that their "lamii" (ie monticola) is a small and delicate species, from a single clone originating in Germany... they haven't updated this description for a couple of years whereas Andreas updated his this Spring. Could it get any more confusing?

Onto my update now!

Both BE lamii (which I'm calling monticola) and Wistuba's lamii are now doing well for me- given warmer temperatures than I would have expected them to want. Over summer, they've tended to have days around 25C and nights around 15C.

monticolamonticola.jpg

lamii- it's still alive!

alive.jpg

lamii.jpg

Edited by Gareth Davies

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Nice! I'll stay well away from this one until I've managed to keep my villosa alive for at least 2 years :)

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Nice! I'll stay well away from this one until I've managed to keep my villosa alive for at least 2 years :)

I have a feeling that this is much easier than villosa, once we know what we're doing. I think where I've gone wrong in the past is trying to treat it like villosa.... I'm doing better with it now, treating it more like an intermediate. My plant is now established and its next leaf is substantially bigger than the last one.

I hope this one does ok for me now, it's potentially a spectacular species.

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I have a feeling that this is much easier than villosa, once we know what we're doing. I think where I've gone wrong in the past is trying to treat it like villosa.... I'm doing better with it now, treating it more like an intermediate. My plant is now established and its next leaf is substantially bigger than the last one.

I hope this one does ok for me now, it's potentially a spectacular species.

That it is! Glad that some of you are pioneering for the rest of us chickens too scared to kill one of those. I'll be keeping a close eye on your progress! Since it seems to be happy in your conditions we expect continuous progress reports :biggrin:

Good luck with it!

Edited by nadja77

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So, including me, two of us voting that it doesn't need freezing temperatures!

Mine both died with nights down to 10C (50F), days around 17 (65F). I have a feeling that it might need hot days- and so far my experience is that it's not dying with nights around 13c (55F).

It's possible that we are extrapolating too much from villosa. Just because villosa is a sod to grow, and needs a massive temperature drop every day, it doesn't mean that others eg lamii, need the same treatment. Other ultrahighlanders, say densiflora, singalana, edwardsiana, are very happy with highland or even intermediate temperatures.

Gareth, you're discounting the fact most difficult species are also from ultramafic soils. N. edwardsiana is also, but it grows mostly as an epiphyte and so isn't rooted in the soil. This difficulty of cultivation lines up very well with the exact species which are terrestrial growers on ultramafic formations. Is this also the case for N. lamii?

How does this species take orchid fertilizer?

Edited by Dave Evans

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Yeah, I mean, campanulata, pervillei, and clipeata just to name a few Lowlanders that should want it super hot grow just fine as intermediates and actually prefer those conditions in cultivation from everything I've heard.

Hmm, well that is not quite accurate... N. campanulata is a lowlander and it sulks in anything except for hot or warm temps. While N. pervillei and N. clipeata are from higher altitudes and are intermediate species.

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Gareth, you're discounting the fact most difficult species are also from ultramafic soils. N. edwardsiana is also, but it grows mostly as an epiphyte and so isn't rooted in the soil. This difficulty of cultivation lines up very well with the exact species which are terrestrial growers on ultramafic formations. Is this also the case for N. lamii?

How does this species take orchid fertilizer?

I've only just managed to keep this one alive for a few months- I don't dare try fertiliser on it yet. I don't give commercial fertiliser to any of my plants, just coffee in the medium and bugs in the pitchers.

It's an excellent point about species that come from ultramafic soils. N rajah, villosa, northiana, attenboroughii are all "challenging". Dave, which other species come from ultramafic environments?

One of the reasons why I started this thread was define what this species needs- much as we can lump most Neps together with a general method, some species seem to need special treatment.

One thing I've been very surprised by is that this species, which we'd expect to want it cold, actually needs it almost intermediate-highland to get established, although it's possible that it'll need it colder if it ever gets bigger.

Not sure if anyone else finds this, but the issue with many of the difficult species is simply getting them established. I've found rajah is very hard to get settled, a new one that arrives in the post inevitably takes more than a year to start growing- but from there, it's not difficult or slow growing at all.

I'm starting to feel the same about the BE and AW TC clones... others have got spectacular plants of these in all sorts of media, either perlite or live sphagnum, but my plants of both of these have never settled even after a couple of years- whereas villosa from seeds are much happier, healthier and faster growing for me.

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Well, organisms modify the systems that activate and deactivate specific genes in the DNA while developing. TC conditions (the longer the plants are in TC, the greater chance something could be mis-modified) should be able to affect these systems in unknown ways. Some of the highland vs. lowland characteristics a species has could be set while the seed is germinating in "unusual" conditions. Which is why seed is the best method for widely distributing Nepenthes and most plants. TC is the best method for multiplying specific clones.

Another thing. The altitude is a guide to the expected air temperature. Not necessarily the ground temperature, where the seedlings are growing. The rock probably radiates warmth nearly all night long.

Edited by Dave Evans

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