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A hybrid of everything


StuartF

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I was wondering if anyone had produced a sarracenia hybrid that was a combination of all the species? If we take the view that there are eight species (it makes the numbers add up so much better) then three generations of hybridisation could produce a hybrid of all eight species. I'm curious to see what this would look like, and just how much variety there could be.

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Hi Stuart,

I am thinking that the level of variation would be exceptionally huge.

Each time a cross is made, you are mixing genes and the results are variable in the seeds produced.

When you multiply that up through all of the crossings you are theorising, at each stage that variability increases.

By the time you get to the end 'desired' plants, genes that were recessive in the first crossing could more than likely be deeply buried in the genetic makeup of those final plants and thus not even noticeable. For example, if leucophylla was in the first crossing, you may not see any of it's noteworthy features in the plants.

The above takes into account just the variability that comes up in crossing 'basic' species. Now imagine all of the different unregistered 'forms' and differences in each species (just look at Mike [King]'s national collection for examples!). Suddenly the variability factor has gone through the roof!

Lastly, naturally and environmentally-stimulated mutations could come in at any point adding yet more variation.

Thus, even if you had two different people, crossing the exact same vegetatively cloned species in the same order, you will likely get quite different results by the end.

I'm sure someone with statistical knowledge will be able to at least tell you how many different ways you can end up at the final seedlings if you take just the 8 starting species and cross them in all possible different orders. I can't do the maths but it'll be fairly large straight away!

However,

having said the above, perhaps someone has attempted this before? It would take a relatively long amount of time to complete.

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You could do the math ;) I'm sure.

? x ? x ? x ? x ? x ? x ? x ?

First ?: All 8 species possible.

Second ?: 7 species possible, cause you don't want to use one of it twice. (no repetition)

Third ?: 6 pos.

...

8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1 = 8! = 40320 permutations possible.

One Problem left... Who did it? :D

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I'm nearly there - just need to get the last generation of hybrids to flower together (last year there was a short overlap, and I forgot to do it).

It's just for curiosity really. The more you mix the parents, the more 'average' the offspring become (in general terms).

I'm not expecting anything special buit if we can mix all the characters together into a single strain, we can throw all the rest away and save all that pointless arguing about how many species there are!

(that last bit was a joke, by the way, in case it didn't survive the transfer to the written word).

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You could do the math ;) I'm sure.

8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1 = 8! = 40320 permutations possible.

haha, thanks MonkeyCup.

Don't think I paid much attention in my Statistics A-Level at school!

John, that is exactly my thoughts with the process - the end result will probably be somewhat disappointing as the strong genes for specific traits will have been 'watered' down each time a cross is made, especially if more dominant characteristics take over what we, as growers, perceive to be attractive recessive features.

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John, that is exactly my thoughts with the process - the end result will probably be somewhat disappointing as the strong genes for specific traits will have been 'watered' down each time a cross is made, especially if more dominant characteristics take over what we, as growers, perceive to be attractive recessive features.

if you make the second-from-last cross ??? x minor and ??? x leucophylla then you may get a bit of brightness in the final progeny...:sun_bespectacled:

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Surely the best way to get the best variety is to cross hybrids.

For example, rather than crossing AxB then (AxB)xC, then ((AxB)xC)xD, how about crossing (AxB) with (CxD), then crossing ((AxB)x(CxD))x((ExF)x(GxH)).

Wouldn't this decrease the possibility of any one single trait being diluted quite as much, because by the time you get to ((((((AxB)xc)xD)xE)xF)xG)xH the amount of genetic material from A or B would be so infinitesimally small as to be almost non-existant?

And you'd be able to achieve the full complement in a quarter of the time!

:suicide_fool-edit:

Edited by Loakesy
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For example, rather than crossing AxB then (AxB)xC, then ((AxB)xC)xD, how about crossing (AxB) with (CxD), then crossing ((AxB)x(CxD))x((ExF)x(GxH)).

I presume this is what StuartF is proposing. For example;

1st cross (year 0): A×B / C×D / E×F / G×H

2nd cross (year 5?): ((A×B)×(C×D)) / ((E×F)×(G×H))

3rd Cross (year 10?): (((A×B)×(C×D))×((E×F)×(G×H)))

(Year 15?): maturity of third generation - see results

This is how they can be hybridised in three generations.

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I presume this is what StuartF is proposing. For example;

1st cross (year 0): A×B / C×D / E×F / G×H

2nd cross (year 5?): ((A×B)×(C×D)) / ((E×F)×(G×H))

3rd Cross (year 10?): (((A×B)×(C×D))×((E×F)×(G×H)))

(Year 15?): maturity of third generation - see results

This is how they can be hybridised in three generations.

That's pretty much what I was thinking of, the quickest way to get an even mix. Has anyone tried this or should I be aiming to have the right mix of mature 1st generation hybrids to start stage 2 next year?

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haha, thanks MonkeyCup.

Don't think I paid much attention in my Statistics A-Level at school!

John, that is exactly my thoughts with the process - the end result will probably be somewhat disappointing as the strong genes for specific traits will have been 'watered' down each time a cross is made, especially if more dominant characteristics take over what we, as growers, perceive to be attractive recessive features.

Strong genes (dominant alleles) dont get watered down, they are either present or not present. If present the characteristic they contribute to (phenotype) will be displayed if they are absent the characteristic will not show.

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You could do the math ;) I'm sure.

? x ? x ? x ? x ? x ? x ? x ?

First ?: All 8 species possible.

Second ?: 7 species possible, cause you don't want to use one of it twice. (no repetition)

Third ?: 6 pos.

...

8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1 = 8! = 40320 permutations possible.

One Problem left... Who did it? :D

That a bit low. If you are talking genetic variation you have to include the number of chromosomes at each cross too. Dont know how many it has but lets say it has 46 chromosomes like us (23 pairs) there can therefore be 2^23 (8388608) types of pollen or egg. so in the first cross there will be 8388608 x 8388608 possible combinations = 70368744177664 types of genetically different plants possible. And this doesnt take into account natural mutations that occur during meiosis where genes can be lost or swapped around).

However the observable differences (phenotype) will be much smaller

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Surely the best way to get the best variety is to cross hybrids.

For example, rather than crossing AxB then (AxB)xC, then ((AxB)xC)xD, how about crossing (AxB) with (CxD), then crossing ((AxB)x(CxD))x((ExF)x(GxH)).

Wouldn't this decrease the possibility of any one single trait being diluted quite as much, because by the time you get to ((((((AxB)xc)xD)xE)xF)xG)xH the amount of genetic material from A or B would be so infinitesimally small as to be almost non-existant?

And you'd be able to achieve the full complement in a quarter of the time!

:suicide_fool-edit:

This is exactly what I have done this year. I crossed 4 hybrids composed of 2 each of the parent species as per the above method. I selected some very vigorous hybrids to try to produce vigorous plants that are worth growing, rather than just a simple blend of generic traits. This fall will be the seed of the F1 generation which will grow all winter and spring under 24 hour lights. Hopefully they will mature within about 3 years so that selections can be made to grow out and cross to each other to get the F2 generation, which will be producing seedlings all of which are 1/8th of each of the 8 primary species. I am hoping to get the F2 generation matured and showing off their best growth within 10 years. If all goes well.

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