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I think this is very sad, he clearly isn't a CP enthusiast, just a market digger. Obviously, I cannot say whether or not he is breaking the law, but I certainly feel he is challenging some strong ethical principles.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Carnivorous-Pitcher-Pl...=item35ac871829

Please chime in and let me know what you think. Also, if any moderator could move this to the most appropriate place, I would appreciate it. Not sure if this was the best place for this.

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So long as it IS his land and what he says is true - no reason to assume not - then I don't see any problem.

He seems to be basically farming them. He says that he resows the seeds and now has more plants growing than when he started.

If this gives him an insentive to conserve the land then good on him.

I now some people have a problem with any plant collected from the wild - but for me, it depends how it is done.

If it is just poachers 'steeling' plants, with no regards to their survival, then that is wrong - no if or buts. But, when it is the land owner 'harvesting' a small amount of a successfully reproducing population - then that is fine. Especially if it maintains the land and all the other species which also live there. After all, the alternative could be to totally destroy the land and grow something else which can make money.

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I couldnt agree more with what Phil has already said,

As long as it is the sellers land i see no problem with it, again it will help keep the land managed the population of plants growing.

I know there is not much chance of verifying of the facts they have stated.

If i had some land / woodland (i will one day! its one of my lifes goals) i would be looking to introduce some sarracenia and maybe drosera too.

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If i had some land / woodland (i will one day! its one of my lifes goals) i would be looking to introduce some sarracenia and maybe drosera too.

That would be ILLEGAL, and highly irresponsible. It is a criminal offense to introduce any non-native species into the wild in the UK. Additionally, releasing species of non-native drosera, could threaten native populations, once they start to spread from the release site. It doesn't matter where in the world you look - problems are caused by the release of non-native species.

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That would be ILLEGAL, and highly irresponsible. It is a criminal offense to introduce any non-native species into the wild in the UK. Additionally, releasing species of non-native drosera, could threaten native populations, once they start to spread from the release site. It doesn't matter where in the world you look - problems are caused by the release of non-native species.

Thanks Phil, yes i know that it is illegal for non-native species,

It should have read; i would also maybe look to introduce some sarracenia and maybe drosera too.

By drosera i was thinking native species ONLY, on the thought of Sarra's i was thinking Purpurea as know there are some species wild in the UK.

Of course i would do a great deal of research and investigation before releasing anything into the wild, it would be totaly irresponsible not to.

I would depending on what sort of land it was, prefer a large under-cover setup (ie: Multi poly tunnel / dome sort of setup),

so in theory could almost be a self contained eco system.

If i get my bit of woodland ive always wanted i would prob just enjoy it for what it is.

Edited by trauts2002
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By drosera i was thinking native species ONLY, on the thought of Sarra's i was thinking Purpurea as know there are some species wild in the UK.

The rules don't change, as purp is still a non-native species. And personally, I'd eradicate those purps which have been introduced - whether it is obvious or not, they will be doing some harm - by depleting the local invertebrate populations and taking space from something else which is native. As for native drosera, moving any species to an area it doesn't naturally occur is frowned upon.

If i get my bit of woodland ive always wanted i would prob just enjoy it for what it is.

That would be far better :tu: By woodland I assume you mean native broadleaved woodland and we have so little left, it would be criminal to loose more (and all the insects which depend on it) by someone who clearly cares about it. After all, do we not all complain when we hear about CP habitat being destroyed to make way for crop production in other countries - how ironic it would be to loose our own native habitats for foreign CP's.

Obviously, growing in polytunnels however big, is just the same as we all do (more or less) - so long as the woodland isn't cleared to make way for it :biggrin:

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He/she does publicly state that it is their own land.

Are you referring to the 'my remote' in the listing? If so, are you sure they mean 'my' in a sense that they own it. I refer to the street in which I live as 'my street', but I don't own it.

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That would be ILLEGAL, and highly irresponsible. It is a criminal offense to introduce any non-native species into the wild in the UK. Additionally, releasing species of non-native drosera, could threaten native populations, once they start to spread from the release site. It doesn't matter where in the world you look - problems are caused by the release of non-native species.

I agree with the sentiments, the fact that we should not do this, but technically it is only illegal to introduce non-native animals, not plants (apart from a few exceptions listed on schedule 9 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act), if it is your land that is. If it is a protected nature reserve/SSSI etc it would be illegal under that legislation, and if it was privately owned land it might be considered "aggravated trespass"

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The rules don't change, as purp is still a non-native species. And personally, I'd eradicate those purps which have been introduced - whether it is obvious or not, they will be doing some harm - by depleting the local invertebrate populations and taking space from something else which is native. As for native drosera, moving any species to an area it doesn't naturally occur is frowned upon.

I understand what your saying, as said it would be a long and very well researched addition of any plants.

In the long run i would prob lean to not introducing anything non-native localy anyway.

That would be far better :P By woodland I assume you mean native broadleaved woodland and we have so little left, it would be criminal to loose more (and all the insects which depend on it) by someone who clearly cares about it. After all, do we not all complain when we hear about CP habitat being destroyed to make way for crop production in other countries - how ironic it would be to loose our own native habitats for foreign CP's.

Thats exactly what i mean, since being knee high to a grasshopper ive always wanted to "own" my own bit of mixed broadleaved woodland to preserve not only for my family and myself but future generations to enjoy as well.

I have been looking into the in's and out's of few plots of "Ancient woodlands" (have had native tree cover and plants since 1600ad)

I agree it is a shame that day by day we loose more of our natural heratige as well as the vast amounts of wild flowers, insects and animals that are trying to cling on existance, just for the sake of a few extra housing estates.

Obviously, growing in polytunnels however big, is just the same as we all do (more or less) - so long as the woodland isn't cleared to make way for it :biggrin:

Yes i know, if i was to get a plot of "flatter" land i would love to do a sort of Eden project setup but obviously on a tiny scale.

I would also like to leave part of the land to "Nature" ie in the form of classic meadowland with native shrubs, plants and grasses ect.

If i got my woodland it would deffinately be left "as is" and manage in a sensible and responsible manor.

Any way i guess we should get back on subject again...

I would be interested in hearing what the seller has to say about "their" pocket of land in the deep south, wonder if they have a google / map location that coulbe be verified?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hopefully, I will be able to cut off any further trouble before this goes the direction it went on another forum in which I posted the same questioning post.

Unfortunately, I just checked back in and found out that this post was read by some people who took it upon themselves to harass and threaten the individual selling the plants. I do not support this method and I feel it does far more harm than good, to both the plants and to those interested in them.

Asking these questions at forums is a way for us to access as many opinions and perspectives as possible in the hopes that someone will be able to provide information that is helpful. One individual who replied in the other forum claims to have exactly that information. That is exactly my goal in posting such things when I see them. I have no way of knowing that this person is telling the truth when he states that the plants are on his land. Several of you bring up important points such as this. On the other hand, I have no evidence that what the seller is doing is illegal, so I asked the most collectively knowledgeable group I could....CP forums.

The reasons why I did not ask the seller questions regarding his plants myself are simple. I am in no place of authority to do anything about it if something was wrong, and many people on these forums have connections to people that could take action if it is needed. I am also on some forums about reptiles and in both the CP world and the herp world, I have seen several cases where someone was found to be selling illegally collected specimens on ebay or in online classifieds. Upon being questioned by people like myself, the individuals closed up shop and were not held responsible. One individual was caught by LE several years later with a sack full of protected massasauguas from NY state. He was tipped of to the possibility of being caught by being questioned about his classified ad on a reptile forum. How many protected species did he remove from the wild and sell before LE caught up with him later? Another herper from Kansas is constantly setting up new Kingsnake.com ID's and selling wild collected animals that are not legal, he has never been held responsible. Granted, these examples are pretty extreme, but my concern is the same. And my hope in posting here, as I mentioned, is that someone can provide information that indicates one way or the other.

Had others not taken action into their own hands, this may have led to intelligent conversation, as such posts have in the past.

If I ever see something that I feel is suspicious in the future I will be certain to not post it to a forum, and if I do, i will be much more careful to not state any indication of my opinions of the ethical issues I feel are important.

I too agree with individuals being able to dig wild plants of non-protected, legally collected samples. If no one was allowed to do so, none of us would ever be able to grow any of the plants we love. What I don't agree with is the digging of wild plants, legal or not, for sale on the open market by request. Just because it is legal does not mean that it is ethical. Considering the devastation done, primarily by habitat loss, to wild Sarracenia, and considering the ample supply of well grown plants from growers. In my opinion, there is no place for market collecting and open market sales of plants. But this is just my opinion, and as indicated by some of you, this may indeed be a good way to give land owners a reason to protect the habitats on their property. If this can be demonstrated, as in this case Phil does, that the population is benefiting from this sellers attention, then all the better. But I am only 33 years old and even I have seen the loss of small populations of sarracenia to poaching and development. I have also heard of many examples from more experienced older CP'ers of this in years past, so my suspicion is raised when I see these kinds of posts and my instinct is to try to get people that may be able to figure it out and act if needed to protect the plants.

Thanks to all of you for bringing up important points, and for having a good conversation about this. And thank you for not lynching the seller without information, as others have done. I will contact this seller and apologize to him for drawing such negative attention from us. Perhaps, if he hears from some of us in the right way, we can gain another member of the community who has land with these plants and we can help him learn about them, manage them, and protect them. Be Well

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