storm Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Hello everybody, i have 3 baby Cephalotus but they slowly dying They were in a terrarium pothed in ~ 3 inch pot with 50/50 - milled dried spagnum moss and mix of peat. Top lighting was by two fluorescent lamps, sylvania grolux one is the other common - each in 35W. Daytime temperature is ~ 28 C and ~ 23 Celsius at night, humidity ~ 80 - 90%. Now about one month i replaced the fluorescent lamps with 8 powerful LED. - 3 W High-Power Warm White Led 100LM - 3 W High-Power White Led 160LM Diodes are placed on a large heatsink + fan for cooling. Now this is the whole story until now, I wonder where is the cause of deterioration! Is it that changed the fluorescent lamps with LEDs, or that the fan creates air flow and it influences them? Now they are removed from the terrarium and placed near the window. The temperature is ~ 20 centigrade and the humidity ~ 50-60% ... Here are some pictures, First Second: Third: Any comments and suggestions are welcome! Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defalotus Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I'm not a pro but it looks like your medium might stay too wet. From what i've read, Cephs like a well draining soil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimitar Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Hi Storm, The reason is in your potting mix mate. Good for you in the future to use peat and perlite or silica sand. Substrates that have a wide access of oxygen to the roots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) Can I save them if I report? Edited February 16, 2011 by storm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defalotus Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 It definitely couldn't hurt at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesse Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) Hello everybody, i have 3 baby Cephalotus but they slowly dying Daytime temperature is ~ 28 C and ~ 23 Celsius at night, humidity ~ 80 - 90%. Temperature is too high on the long run. Cephalotus likes it chilly, i.e. nightly temperature certainly below 20°C. Did you repot the plants before they started declining? Now about one month i replaced the fluorescent lamps with 8 powerful LED.- 3 W High-Power Warm White Led 100LM - 3 W High-Power White Led 160LM Diodes are placed on a large heatsink + fan for cooling. Are that lamps with a socket for 230 V? Or are you using a constant current LED driver and did the wiring yourself? Is so, did you check the wiring and did you measure the current? Or (beware!) are you using a constant voltage mains adaptor to power the LEDs? Cephalotus needs high light and low temperature. If so, they are not very hard to please. And I'm wondering if the light to take the pictures is the same light that you use for plant lighting? This light is far too weak! I did just some calculations based on the EXIF data of one picture: F/3.3, 1/20 sec., 200 ASA That's less than 1000 lux! You cannot keep Cephalotus with only 1000 lux light intensity, you need much more! So if the light used to take the picture is the same light you use for plant lighting, it's the weak light that causes the trouble. Edited February 16, 2011 by jesse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) Have you measured the light output from your LEDs? I use 6W of LED lighting for a single small Cephalotus and it is placed very close to it. I don't think that the LED fan is causing the deterioration, as good air circulation is beneficial. I think that the growing medium looks too wet and could do with a little more aeration. Cephalotus can grow in a milled dried moss and peat mix, but benefit from some aeration additions such as perlite. Here's one of mine that is in such a mix: Right now, if they have not deteriorated too much, I think your plants would benefit from letting the medium dry out a little and left somewhere with good air movement and light, such as a windowsill. Edited February 17, 2011 by mobile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Did you repot the plants before they started declining? Yes, I repot th plants 2 weeks before change the fluorescent lamps with LED's. Are that lamps with a socket for 230 V? Yes, the fluorescent lamps were on 230V. Or are you using a constant current LED driver and did the wiring yourself? Is so, did you check the wiring and did you measure the current? Or (beware!) are you using a constant voltage mains adaptor to power the LEDs? I use 35W a constant current Led driver, 9V - 48V, 700mA. The LED's are connected in series. 4xWhite with Color 6000-7000(k), 3.2v-3.6v, view angle is 140degrees, 700mA and 140-160 luminance. 4xWarm White with Color 2500-3500(k), 3.2v-3.6v, view angle is 140degrees, 700mA and 80-100 luminance. That means (4x140)+(4x80)= ~880LM - after these calculations, obviously is a little light The pictures are taken on daytime, out side of the terrarium (and the weather was cloudy). What about the humidity - ~ 80 - 90% is good? Because now, they are removed from the terrarium and placed near the window. The temperature is ~ 20 centigrade and the humidity ~ 50-60% ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will9 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Hi storm,are this pots in water,cephalotus may never standing in water ,i thi!nk this you did wrong together whit the high temps!You must hold ceps not wet ,for so far i can see it s match to wet ,ground must looks dry above, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Hi storm,are this pots in water,cephalotus may never standing in water This is not necessarily true. Some of my Cephalotus stand in water trays, which I allow to empty before refilling and I have never had a problem with that. But using this method it is necessary to have well drained medium to allow for aeration of the roots, which the above plants do not have. ... together whit the high temps!You must hold ceps not wet ,for so far i can see it s match to wet ,ground must looks dry above, I too think that the temperatures are a little high for prolonged periods; however, Cephalotus can withstand these temperatures as they see them in their natural environment during the summer. I also agree that they look too wet, due to the growing medium used. A humidity of ~ 80 - 90% is too high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesse Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I use 35W a constant current Led driver, 9V - 48V, 700mA.The LED's are connected in series. 8*3.6V = 28.8 V when connected in series, so it fits into the range of 9V - 48V of the LED driver, all OK. If the LEDs are rated for at least 700 mA and the cooling is adequate then it should cause no trouble. They were brandnew LEDs and you never ever (not a single second!) have used them without heat sink? 4xWhite with Color 6000-7000(k), 3.2v-3.6v, view angle is 140degrees, 700mA and 140-160 luminance.4xWarm White with Color 2500-3500(k), 3.2v-3.6v, view angle is 140degrees, 700mA and 80-100 luminance. That's not really state-of-the-art (compared to the best CREE high-power LEDs), but anyway. That means (4x140)+(4x80)= ~880LM - after these calculations, obviously is a little light Light intensity = Lumen divided by lighted area What is the distance between LEDs and Cephalotus? And how big is the total area you want to light with them 880 lm? The temperature is ~ 20 centigrade and the humidity ~ 50-60% ... 20°C is for Cephalotus at low light conditions much better than 23/28°C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus B Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 This is not necessarily true. Some of my Cephalotus stand in water trays, which I allow to empty before refilling and I have never had a problem with that. But using this method it is necessary to have well drained medium to allow for aeration of the roots, which the above plants do not have.I too think that the temperatures are a little high for prolonged periods; however, Cephalotus can withstand these temperatures as they see them in their natural environment during the summer. I also agree that they look too wet, due to the growing medium used. A humidity of ~ 80 - 90% is too high. Again I have to say ditto to Mobile's comments. My plants, small and large, stand in water during warm weather, often not just very wet but actually flooded with water over the crown. I also use media that allows water to move easily though it, and air in when the water levels drop. However, high humidity will cause problems. Unusually humid weather recently effected a couple of my plants growing outside in a sheltered spot, but the return to normal conditions fixed the problem. I have seen photos of wild Cephs growing where water runs over the ground surface and I have been told by one of our experts on them that he has found plantlets floating in water after rhizomes of Cephs had been smashed by cattle. The broken pieces had grown roots and eventually settled into the substrate to keep growing. Stagnant air and stagnant water are the common problems. My Cephs have grown in low light and direct sun. They survived 50 C temperatures and below 0 C, but still air and long periods in the same water has killed some of my plants. Avoiding these two things stopped my plant losses. For these baby plants, a better mix, a chance to dry out occasionally and air movement is required. However, it may just be reaction to beign repotted and just the leaves will be lost. I have had a number of plants lose leaves after being repotted. You need to manage the humidty to reduce the problem. Too humid the leaves may rot, too dry they will wilt and die back. Don't give up on them. I have had plants regrow from very small pieces of rhizome after near losing them under similar circumstances. In the wild the water levels and air temperate varies, so constant conditions are not ideal. For plants growing near the coast, the water level varies with the tide and well as the rainfall and winds may blow in from the Antarctic or the desert, but they do not normally get tropical humidity (after effects of massive cyclones expected). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 They were brandnew LEDs and you never ever (not a single second!) have used them without heat sink? As already mentioned, the diodes are placed in a large radiator and he are cooling from fan. Light intensity = Lumen divided by lighted areaWhat is the distance between LEDs and Cephalotus? And how big is the total area you want to light with them 880 lm? Dimensions of the terrarium are 43x43 centimeters. Height from the edge of the pot to the diodes is 15 centimeters. How should a light to grow well without causing color? For these baby plants, a better mix, a chance to dry out occasionally and air movement is required. However, it may just be reaction to beign repotted and just the leaves will be lost. I have had a number of plants lose leaves after being repotted. You need to manage the humidty to reduce the problem. Too humid the leaves may rot, too dry they will wilt and die back. If decreased humidity of the air, waiting for soil to dry and increase the number of diodes (or raised the pot closer to the diodes) is there a chance to save them? Is there a need to carefully repot them in a larger pot to make it easier to control humidity and casting of water from the soil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I have been experimenting with using white LED for growing Cephalotus and Heliamphora. Whilst I get good colouration under them, I do not think that growth rate is that good. Your plants look to be quite green, which I am surprised about, so perhaps they are too far from the LEDs? Here's one of my plants which is under 6W LED, you will see that colouration is very good: More in this thread: http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39597 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus B Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 If decreased humidity of the air, waiting for soil to dry and increase the number of diodes (or raised the pot closer to the diodes) is there a chance to save them?Is there a need to carefully repot them in a larger pot to make it easier to control humidity and casting of water from the soil? Rather than risk more shock by repotting, you might consider trying one of my tactics and gently lift them within their current mix. Push holes into the mix and fill with sand or suitable gravel to form drainage channels through the mix. The gravel will also allow air into the mix. Raising the plants onto mounds in the pots is a popular way to lift the crown out of the mix so air can get to it. Just don't let it get too dry all of a sudden. Damp not wet for a while and see if they improve. As long as the rhizome remains greenish there is hope. If they recover, then try repotting in a better mix. Alturnatively, repot some now and see how they do. Just minimise the disturbance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Thank you all for your advice! Now they are repottet! I hope I've managed to do it properly For now I'll leave them on the window, the weather is fairly sunny and hope repotting not affect them much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimitar Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I wish you success indeed, but I am afraid that your media has too little perlite and is not enough drained. There will be no fresh air to the roots and it will be too wet again. However, there is much variation in the mixes that growers use. I prefer to use 1 part peat, 1 parts silica sand, 1 part perlite and for me woks well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Thank you all for your advice!Now they are repottet! I hope I've managed to do it properly For now I'll leave them on the window, the weather is fairly sunny and hope repotting not affect them much! Still looks too anaerobic to me. I personally would have added more drainage material. However, I wouldn't risk repotting again - just cut back on the watering to keep them damp rather than wet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I totally agree, it seems too wet because it has just soaked the soil. After several hours the water will be absorb and will be distributed throughout the soil... I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesse Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Dimensions of the terrarium are 43x43 centimeters.Height from the edge of the pot to the diodes is 15 centimeters. That light should be OK if the daily average temperature can be kept at 18-20°C. If kept at warmer temperatures, the light could be a little weak possibly as Cephalotus needs much more light when kept warmer. I also keep some baby Cephs with LED lighting (white Cree XR-E @350mA constant current), they are leaf cuttings taken last year, I put them in living sphagnum and avoid repotting until they have a good size: When I repot such small baby Cephs, they always stop growing for several weeks. I think, Cephalotus doesn't like root disturbance, so I try to avoid it if I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus B Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Still looks too anaerobic to me. I personally would have added more drainage material. However, I wouldn't risk repotting again - just cut back on the watering to keep them damp rather than wet. Just one little thing that I would like to clarify. Cephs naturally grow in very anaerobic substrate. I am told that it is extremely smelly when distrubed, such as when you wade through it get to the plants growing in those soils. So the issue with potting mixes is not so much that they are anaerobic. The issue is that they need the movement of water through the substrate to keep roots healthy. As we don't all have flowing water through our pots, increasing the movement of air helps with this issue as well, so increasing the aerobic nature of the mix is therefore necessary if the plant is to remain in those conditions long term. Giving it plenty of water poured through the pot and low humidity will also work, but it is easier to just improve the air flow in the mix. However, as you are in winter, reducing the watering is clearily the best option. I tend to leave my pots sitting out of trays or in dry trays in winter so any water that they get runs straight through the pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I have a question to those who grow Cephalotus of artificial light, in particular LED light. What is the duration of illumination? 24/24 or 16 / 8 (16 light / 8 night) or some other period? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesse Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I have a question to those who grow Cephalotus of artificial light, in particular LED light.What is the duration of illumination? 24/24 or 16 / 8 (16 light / 8 night) or some other period? In summer half-year (May-Nov) I'm growing my Cephalotus outdoors. And in winter it is growing at a 12/12 photoperiod under LEDs in a chilly room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm Posted February 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Just the two of you use LEDs as lighting? Anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Mine are on 13 hours/day all year round. This is for practical reasons. I know that other growers use LED lights, I think mostly the red/blue ones. I still think it's far more practical to use fluorescents at the moment. I tend to use the 3 or 6W GU10 LED lamps to spotlight 'special' plants, as it's practical to purchase these from eBay; however, building LED arrays is too much hassle for many growers who simply want to purchase something ready made, i.e. a linear fluorescent light fitting or a gullwing reflector with Envirolite type lamp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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