N. ampullaria not pitchering

[Emre]

Hi people,

I have a problem with two N. ampullaria (Cantley's Red variant, see below) plants that I've been keeping for several months. They are very much alive, and occasionally sprout new leaves, but they never produce any new pitchers. Usually I see the pitcher-shoot beginning to develop at the tip of the leaf, but then they fail to develop into full-size pitchers and just wither. This is my setting:

Carnivorous Plants Paludarium

The water temperature is a constant 28 C, and the air temperature oscillates between 30-25 C between day and night. I have constant 80-100% moisture and a 400 W metal halide lamp suspended 60 cm. above the plants. The soil was a custom mix of long-fibre sphagnum moss, perlite, sphagnum peat, and large-grained quartz sand. Both plants suffered a good deal of transplantation shock and physical trauma (my cat rolled over them and broke all their pitchers.) However, I have four more Nepenthes (visible below, two more N. ampullaria and two N. bicalcatrata specimens) which have started to develop pitchers months ago. These two have woody stems and are older plants, so I'm assuming this has something to do with their failure to develop pitchers. I have never used fertilisers, and always RO water. (The island is waterproof, so no fish waste gets inside.)

Photos:

[ifurita]

If those ampullaria have gone into the vining stage, then its normal that they will stop producing pitchers(aside from the rare upper pitcher). If this is the case, you should get basals with pitchers soon too.

[Emre]

If those ampullaria have gone into the vining stage, then its normal that they will stop producing pitchers(aside from the rare upper pitcher). If this is the case, you should get basals with pitchers soon too.

Oh, basal pitchers! I'd love to get some. I've read some tricks to stimulate basal growth, like turning the pot sideways or bending the vine. Is it too early to try such tricks?

[manders]

Something doesnt look right although hard to exactly put a finger on it. Amps do need some kind of fertlizer in order to grow, either in the pitchers or in compost, if your using ro water and inert compost they will getting zero nutrients. Just my own view but i dont buy into bending the stem over produces basals theory at all. If the stem is long enough to bend over then basals are usually coming just around the corner anyhow. Amps do seem to like good light to grow basals and a 400 w metal halide should be plenty, that said some of the leaves seem to be burnt.

On the basis that they are probably not getting any nutrients some weak fertilizer might help.

Edited January 23, 2011 by manders

[Emre]

Something doesnt look right although hard to exactly put a finger on it. Amps do need some kind of fertlizer in order to grow, either in the pitchers or in compost, if your using ro water and inert compost they will getting zero nutrients. Just my own view but i dont buy into bending the stem over produces basals theory at all. If the stem is long enough to bend over then basals are usually coming just around the corner anyhow. Amps do seem to like good light to grow basals and a 400 w metal halide should be plenty, that said some of the leaves seem to be burnt.

On the basis that they are probably not getting any nutrients some weak fertilizer might help.

Thank you for your reply. Yes, something is missing since the plant has a very slow metabolism. The puzzling part is that I have two more N. ampullarias in the same setting and they are thriving. They were potted in the same soil, too. They are only different in terms of age: Cantley's Reds had woody stems and were much older than the baby Harlequins.

I've come across the following explanation regarding vine-bending a few days ago. The explanation is that suppressing the apical dominance prevents a morphogen from reaching the basal nodes, triggering basal growth. Then again, I don't know if it's true or relevant at all in my case.

Apical Dominance

[manders]

Thank you for your reply. Yes, something is missing since the plant has a very slow metabolism. The puzzling part is that I have two more N. ampullarias in the same setting and they are thriving. They were potted in the same soil, too. They are only different in terms of age: Cantley's Reds had woody stems and were much older than the baby Harlequins.

I've come across the following explanation regarding vine-bending a few days ago. The explanation is that suppressing the apical dominance prevents a morphogen from reaching the basal nodes, triggering basal growth. Then again, I don't know if it's true or relevant at all in my case.

Apical Dominance

Chopping the apical growth point will stop the auxins. Just not sure that the auxins are moved around by gravity, seems unlikely to me but I could easily be wrong. All the amps I've owned have grown basals long before the main growth was long enough to bend.

Edit,

Just looked it up, auxin transport is independant of gravity. Therefore turning the plant upside down or sideways doesnt affect how much auxin reaches other parts of the plant. If the auxins that inhibit the formation of sideshoots are at the same level whether the plant is upside or not then theres no reason to expect the side shoots to grow.

Probably someone tried it once and a few weeks later basals appeared and another old wives Nepenthes tale is born.

Edited January 23, 2011 by manders

[Emre]

Chopping the apical growth point will stop the auxins. Just not sure that the auxins are moved around by gravity, seems unlikely to me but I could easily be wrong. All the amps I've owned have grown basals long before the main growth was long enough to bend.

Edit,

Just looked it up, auxin transport is independant of gravity. Therefore turning the plant upside down or sideways doesnt affect how much auxin reaches other parts of the plant. If the auxins that inhibit the formation of sideshoots are at the same level whether the plant is upside or not then theres no reason to expect the side shoots to grow.

Probably someone tried it once and a few weeks later basals appeared and another old wives Nepenthes tale is born.

Thank you for clarifying that issue, Manders. I'm going to use the coffee treatment on one of the plants and see if that works. Given the current condition of the plant, I don't think chopping off the apical point would be a good idea. Maybe later, if the coffee treatment provides a growth boost. How many inches should I trim exactly to suppress apical dominance?

[manders]

Thank you for clarifying that issue, Manders. I'm going to use the coffee treatment on one of the plants and see if that works. Given the current condition of the plant, I don't think chopping off the apical point would be a good idea. Maybe later, if the coffee treatment provides a growth boost. How many inches should I trim exactly to suppress apical dominance?

I was really suggesting you do that, if the plant is growing well, then you will get basals without chopping anything off. If its not growing well, chopping the growing point is likely to be a bad idea.

The size of the light and and the amount of heat it will give out may also be an issue if they are too close to it, but to be frank, i've never grown mine that hot so cant ge sure, mine are uselly around 24C give or take a degree or so.

[ifurita]

Thank you for your reply. Yes, something is missing since the plant has a very slow metabolism. The puzzling part is that I have two more N. ampullarias in the same setting and they are thriving. They were potted in the same soil, too. They are only different in terms of age: Cantley's Reds had woody stems and were much older than the baby Harlequins.

Apical Dominance

To me this more or less rules out the lack of nutrients theory since its the same soil and the Harlequins are pitchering. That said, I'm growing some of my longest N. ampullaria vines in tap water(yes, just water alone) and they lasted long enough to produce a good number of pitchers to obtain additional nutrients from. Since age is the main difference...my experience is that a cutting from a vine section of any Nepenthes will continue to produce upper pitchers until a basal appears. Since ampullaria seldom produces uppers, that's the reason you aren't getting any.

I second what manders said about not chopping anything off. I have had ampullarias which didn't seem to be doing anything initially, with only a few leaves on the main stem, and these produced basals before some of the seemingly more healthy ones did. Perhaps the energy is going into root growth or something. My ampullarias grow in the tropical heat of 35-27C, so I'm very sure it isn't too hot for them.

[Emre]

To me this more or less rules out the lack of nutrients theory since its the same soil and the Harlequins are pitchering. That said, I'm growing some of my longest N. ampullaria vines in tap water(yes, just water alone) and they lasted long enough to produce a good number of pitchers to obtain additional nutrients from. Since age is the main difference...my experience is that a cutting from a vine section of any Nepenthes will continue to produce upper pitchers until a basal appears. Since ampullaria seldom produces uppers, that's the reason you aren't getting any.

I second what manders said about not chopping anything off. I have had ampullarias which didn't seem to be doing anything initially, with only a few leaves on the main stem, and these produced basals before some of the seemingly more healthy ones did. Perhaps the energy is going into root growth or something. My ampullarias grow in the tropical heat of 35-27C, so I'm very sure it isn't too hot for them.

Wow, growing Nepenthes in tap water... something I couldn't dare to do, but I've read that Nepenthes can tolerate mineral build-up better than most CPs. Harlequins were a lot younger and smaller, so maybe they needed less nutrients to sprout the initial pitchers? I've used the coffee treatment on one of the plants now. The other plant will go without it, so it'll be like a controlled experiment. I'll post some pictures if I see any visible effect. And I'm not cutting anything off until I have established basal growth.

Thanks for both replies. Manders, by the way, what was your source? I've checked a few scientific articles which say that auxins are involved in geotropism. Like this article for example.

[Rob-Rah]

Could you be drying out the plant with too much light/radiant heat? As I said in a previous post, I am dubious that conditions in which your heliamphora will thrive will be conditions for the neps you are growing with it.

My own N. ampullaria (a 'Cantleys red') grows with a mere 18inch 40W tube of light (plus ambient light in a normal household room) and pitchers fine.

[Emre]

Could you be drying out the plant with too much light/radiant heat? As I said in a previous post, I am dubious that conditions in which your heliamphora will thrive will be conditions for the neps you are growing with it.

My own N. ampullaria (a 'Cantleys red') grows with a mere 18inch 40W tube of light (plus ambient light in a normal household room) and pitchers fine.

Hi Rob,

I've answered that post I think. It is possible, but I have four more Nepenthes thriving and pitchering in the same conditions. I may eventually switch to a 250 W metal halide. How old and how large is your N. ampullaria?

[Rob-Rah]

My amp has been living under its current conditions for about 6 years. It gets cut back every few years to keep it at around 30-40cm of stem. It would be far too big for my tank otherwise!

[Emre]

My amp has been living under its current conditions for about 6 years. It gets cut back every few years to keep it at around 30-40cm of stem. It would be far too big for my tank otherwise!

I see. Are they basal pitchers, or lower pitchers attached to leaves?

[manders]

Wow, growing Nepenthes in tap water... something I couldn't dare to do, but I've read that Nepenthes can tolerate mineral build-up better than most CPs. Harlequins

were a lot younger and smaller, so maybe they needed less nutrients to sprout the initial pitchers? I've used the coffee treatment on one of the plants now. The other plant will go without it, so it'll be like a controlled experiment. I'll post some pictures if I see any visible effect. And I'm not cutting anything off until I have established basal growth.

Thanks for both replies. Manders, by the way, what was your source? I've checked a few scientific articles which say that auxins are involved in geotropism. Like this article for example.

Yeah theres lots of papers and around, this one is interesting and shows the percentage of auxins does decrease in roots if gravity is removed and increases in the stem. Basals come from the lower stem so guess it could go either way. Maybe they collect in the bottom of the u shape if you lay the pot on its side and growing point goes upwards. I would still have to say, most neps seem to grow basals way before you can bend the stem right over. Paper

As rob-rah pointed out, i was thinking about the radiant heat of the 400 w mh light rather than the air temperature.

Fertilising sure wont do any harm in small doses, let us know what happens.

Edited January 24, 2011 by manders

[Emre]

When I was doing my preliminary research, almost all the sources/books I've read recommended maximum lighting for carnivorous plants. "You cannot give too much light to carnivorous plants" was the mantra. Logically, there must still be an upper limit of course, but compared to the tropical sun I assume 400 W is still rather dim. (I know, N. ampullaria usually grows in shaded regions though.) And I have the younger ampullarias pitchering happily, too. That's really confusing. Aren't younger plants supposed to be less resistant to thermal heat since they germinate under the forest canopy? Also, the plant itself looks rather fine. The leaves turn red-brown before they die, but by that time there are new leaves coming. Just no pitchers (and no more than a few leaves at a time.)

I'll raise the lamp further and see if that changes anything.

[ifurita]

On the note about tropical sun, I just got back from Malaysia and while there came across an area where ampullaria grows and there is almost no tree cover. The plants there, even the smaller ones, are not at all shaded from the sun and seem quite happy.

I have to admit, I wonder how the auxin thing works out for ampullaria. Its one of the few Neps which produces basal-ish rosettes from its vines, even in mid-air. I wonder if that changes anything?

[Emre]

On the note about tropical sun, I just got back from Malaysia and while there came across an area where ampullaria grows and there is almost no tree cover. The plants there, even the smaller ones, are not at all shaded from the sun and seem quite happy.

I have to admit, I wonder how the auxin thing works out for ampullaria. Its one of the few Neps which produces basal-ish rosettes from its vines, even in mid-air. I wonder if that changes anything?

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence about upturned plants sprouting basal pitchers. Maybe it's just an urban, self-propagating myth. Maybe not. Phototropism is not to be ruled out, either: it's a process regulated by auxins. I think we would have to upturn the plant and give lighting from below to fully reverse the flow of auxins. As for chopping off the apical growth, I think this trick may have already been tried on one of my plants...

I guess the guys at the nursery didn't get the results they wanted, though. The plant seems to have carried on vining.

[pmatil]

This thread is interesting. I have one quite large Ampullaria and during last summer it didin't make any pitchers just new leaves. I had a daylight 18 W CFL maybe too close (about 20 cm) to the leaves as there was burn spots here and there. At the end of the summer I increased the distance from the light source and it seemed that immediately pitchers started to develop on every leaf. Also no more burn spots. I'm still waiting for basals...

Apart from basals I noticed a strange growth from its stem:

[Rob-Rah]

I see. Are they basal pitchers, or lower pitchers attached to leaves?

It has both.

[Emre]

Nepenthes enjoying a glass of Tschibo coffee. I have raised the light, too. Waiting for visible results now.

Apart from basals I noticed a strange growth from its stem

Is that just a leaf? I think I see a tendril at the tip.

[pmatil]

Emre, yes that's a leaf. Strange it has started growing from there.

[manders]

Amps often grow side shoots all allong the main stem, its probably a good sign on your plant may be starting to try and grow.

[pmatil]

After switching to arcadia original tropical as another cfl (the other is philips aquarelle 10000K) my ampullaria 'brunei red-speckled' started to "burn" or so it seems. The pitchers turned red very fast and then dry out. The light are about 30 cm away from the plants. With 2 aquarelles the pitchers are fine. Too much red in the spectrum?

[Emre]

After switching to arcadia original tropical as another cfl (the other is philips aquarelle 10000K) my ampullaria 'brunei red-speckled' started to "burn" or so it seems. The pitchers turned red very fast and then dry out. The light are about 30 cm away from the plants. With 2 aquarelles the pitchers are fine. Too much red in the spectrum?

I would say the light source is hanging too low. I keep the lightbulb 50-60 cm. above the plants.

As for the coffee experiment: apparently, it works. While both problematic Nepenthes started pitchering eventually, the one treated with coffee started doing so just two weeks after the treatment, and the pitchers produced thereby were a lot larger. This is the one treated with coffee, with nice maroon lips and a second vine coming out of its mid-stem: