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Standard of Sarracenia ID


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Hi Will,i understand what you are saying about location plants being kept "pure" and i do this,they are all labeled correctly and catalogued,whether they are wild collected plants(some of the alan hindle plants were wild collected many years ago)LEGALLY then.Many of mine are grown from wild seed locations and you have to trust the person who collected it.

I am holding on to as many of these plants as i can,some i let friends have who have more space,a few i sell,but i am not a commercial grower so i can only let a few spare plants go each year,many of the rarer plants don't divided very often,this is why they are rarer in cultivation.

As for crossing,(leuco x leuco) etc as you said,this is only for my pleasure to see if i can create a better looking plant in my eyes,i.e more colourful,bigger,fatter pitchers etc. These plants are always recorded as such and never just as a leucophylla! I always include the parents and location data so people know

Heres one i did earlier

This illustrates what i'm trying to do,i know its not a species cross but you get the idea.

ada

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I think you are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist, as well as one which can never be fixed.

The well known and respected growers (increasing in number all the time) DO keep very good and acurate records of where their plants come from. So if you want to be as certain as possible about a plant, only buy from them.

Unfortunately there will always be people who can't be trusted, and will put any old label on a plant to sell. Just as some people want to have a label for a plant which doesn't have one - so they look at pictures and say 'it looks like' that one, and give it that label. So again, only buy from people who are know to be trusted.

As has already been said - with location plants, there is a lot of natural variation. So no amount of pictures will truely represent them. Location plants selfed or crossed with another from the same location, are good as representing that location. But once crossed with another location - stop being named location plants.

But the ONLY way to be 100% certain - is to collect the seeds yourself, otherwise you just have to trust the information you are given by someone else.

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Guest partisangardener

Phil an expert grower like you might not have a problem with it, so for you it doesn’t exist. Enthusiastic beginners will have a problem to find reliable growers (there are too few, counted in sold plants I guess).

If such a site would exist there would be a greater demand for these clones. They would be propagated more, especially when these expert growers work together with the green industry. :)

So a beginner who is interested could start with clones from the wild if he wants. Without waiting for years on someone’s list to find out after some more years that half of his collection is wrong labelled and all the offspring is just for the compost. If he has given some away in the believe of true information....

I know this problem wouldn’t be totally cured that way, but it would lessen the number of mislabelled plants, lessen the pressure on the wild population, cut down the price of such clones (!)

And by the way does every expert grower always give away the whole genealogy of his sold plants and seeds from them? Including all the former owners?

Edited by partisangardener
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It seems like we're talking about three things:

- named location plants

- cultivars

- hybrids

In my experience named location plants tend to be quite well labelled. You'll rarely get a precise location when you're talking about a growing area of many square miles. And we sometimes see plants where the county and state do not match. I don't see how or why you'd want to control cross location breeding. Label it correctly and it's fine. Leucophylla 'Titan' is a result of such a cross.

Cultivars used to be problematic because there were so few growers. The lost Slack cultivars were a result of the decline of Marsdens and the poor labelling that went on. But in the Internet age and with so many more growers I think this is much less of a problem.

Which leaves cultivars and I dont think you can eradicate the unknown hybrid. Tissue culture labs don't help here most of the time.

Anyway, with so many experienced growers now, all of whom keep the best records they can, I think there's limited scope for improvement.

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Hi Will,i understand what you are saying about location plants being kept "pure" and i do this,they are all labeled correctly and catalogued,whether they are wild collected plants(some of the alan hindle plants were wild collected many years ago)LEGALLY then.Many of mine are grown from wild seed locations and you have to trust the person who collected it.

I am holding on to as many of these plants as i can,some i let friends have who have more space,a few i sell,but i am not a commercial grower so i can only let a few spare plants go each year,many of the rarer plants don't divided very often,this is why they are rarer in cultivation.

As for crossing,(leuco x leuco) etc as you said,this is only for my pleasure to see if i can create a better looking plant in my eyes,i.e more colourful,bigger,fatter pitchers etc. These plants are always recorded as such and never just as a leucophylla! I always include the parents and location data so people know

Heres one i did earlier

This illustrates what i'm trying to do,i know its not a species cross but you get the idea.

ada

Thanks Phil,this is what i tying to say!

Hi Ada ,i understand what you trying to do whit make better plants ,have you allready make better plants whit cross two localitys?

It s very dangerous to do for future,the only what you do is two special marks cross togheter and like Phil mention ,when someone see a picture from a locality plant whit that special mark and have buy your plant ,meaby he set this locality on his plant and sell the offsets or the seeds for good locality,there must be only one person that do this,i hope you understand what i trying to say.Not everyone is be so honest,for some growers is only money important,you have this in every hobby!

I collect for more then 10 years locality plants from lithops,haworthia and other succulents,noone cross this localitys for so far i know except astrophytum long time ago;

The same happened today whit sarras,why ,i don t know,but i know one thing for sure ,it s not a good idea crossing localitys togheter!After a while you get the same like cactus astrophytum, long ago cross this localitys togheter,today you can not find any real locality anymore, or you must have seeds from wild plants and this you may not legall collect anymore(buy the way ,you can allways illegally buy this today if you want,but some localitys are dissapear allready),that s the danger when you begin to cross locality plants.

That s also the reason why i not like this,i hope you understood my opinion,this is only my opinion and i can be wrong!

Cheers Will

Edited by will9
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I'd rather have healthy plants instead of eventually weak selfed clones created in an attempt to preserve the locality.

You'll never remove the scamsters that label plants dishonestly, but 99% of growers crossing different locales label them correctly.

I've got some flava var. atropurpurea Blackwater x Wewahitchka seeds in the fridge which will be sowed next month.

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Will,i understand what you are saying.But i don't understand why.

I still have the very first sarracenia i ever got(20 years ago) if you look after them,there are no reasons why you should loose them.

So there is no reason why any location plants should be lost to cultivation.

As i said in an earlier post,i share or sell a few and keep good records,so if i do or did loose a plant i know where i can get one back from.

I suspect many growers do this.

As for your statement" have you allready make better plants whit cross two localitys?" I don't know yet, the seedlings are still too young to decide.I have made several leuco x leuco crosses from two locations.

I will post a picture of some tomorrow for you to look at.

ada

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Will,i understand what you are saying.But i don't understand why.

I still have the very first sarracenia i ever got(20 years ago) if you look after them,there are no reasons why you should loose them.

So there is no reason why any location plants should be lost to cultivation.

As i said in an earlier post,i share or sell a few and keep good records,so if i do or did loose a plant i know where i can get one back from.

I suspect many growers do this.

As for your statement" have you allready make better plants whit cross two localitys?" I don't know yet, the seedlings are still too young to decide.I have made several leuco x leuco crosses from two locations.

I will post a picture of some tomorrow for you to look at.

ada

Hi Ada and alexis,i think there is a misunderstanding,i only say my opinion others may say there opinions also and i respect this.

I respect also what you do after all,everyone do whit his plants what he wish to do!The most important thing is that you must do what you like the most and enjoy growing.

Ada i not say anything of lost them,but iff people go all cross this then i think you have a lot off crossing whitin the next twenty years or so?

Like i can understand then it s the first time you cross this in twenty years?thats really very good and i like this.

But i think there are become a lot new growers the last 5 years or so,and it s not the same like 10 years ago,i think?

carnivore plants are the last few years very populair,it s go very fast whit this!

However the plants looks ,i think not she are looking better then the real ones.Also only my opinion!

The danger is ,when people begin to sell these crossings and this mix up whit the real ones,then you have a problem.The real ones are not lost but after a while noone knows what the real ones are.I think you live also not for ever,and what happened after this?

Meaby i not see this anymore becausse i am to old,but the same happened whit cactus astrophytum,and i have seen this !

Meaby the next generation see this whit sarra,noone can tell!

And this bring us up to the topic again when someone go make pictures from these and growers go check there plants on this pictures what she think it s a good idea,meaby for reason she lost the labels ,or the cat have sleeps between the plants or any other reason,i hope you know what i try to say.

It s only a bit off a warning for future ,the collections that you know today dissapear whit time and plants go to everywhere,whit this there are lost many labels and plants,or plants are be sell to big salesmen that not care what she are sell,i see this happened whit many great cactuscollections the last few years when family that not know anything must sell this.

But i think this is long after my time and i not know even why i do this ,growers not listining anyway to others and do what she thinking she must do,and meaby she have riht!

So this are only things that i thinking over and who shall knows how this go after all!

Cheers Will

Edited by will9
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Everybody should use a Brother label printer Will! Felt tips fade.

Yes ,you are riht but not everybody have one ,i have not

That s the problem when you are older,i think i know what you main but i am not sure,can you give some advice off this please,

cheers Will

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Guest partisangardener

I must admit that my use of the word cultivar only meant clones of certain plants from a wild population. No hybrids and cultivation strains which in include crosses of different locations. They are not very interesting to me. These will survive.

In fifty years many collections will be destroyed. The collecting of pictures of the plants of this time will be mainly in vain unless somebody does it now while these plants still exist.

I have seen one cactus collection too, which was destroyed after the death of the collector. Only a few where sold to collectors, the rest to someone who knew nothing about keeping these plants. It took them two or three years to die. Of course this collector must have had some notes, but after his death these unimportant papers where thrown away. So apart from very rare species no Collector was interested.

Some beautiful gardens of plant collectors gone within few years including all the notes these people kept.

My attempt was to give others now or in twenty/thirty years a good chance to get some of the true stuff, we destroy now so lavishly.

The pictures of these plants will be there with a hundred IDs. But nobody of the now experts will be there to judge whether they are true or not.

They will have to be happy with what is left.

I doubt it very much, that there will be complete pictures of these collection plants in every growing stage under different conditions with the right information to it(only the ones meant which are widely distributed and have still their information tagged to the plant). I doubt it very much that even one percent of the now collections will be documented (all pictures) with all true information, in say 50 years . If there are any now connected with all information?

Non public information will go faster and easier especially if everybody keeps his own system.

Such a site would hem the tide a bit, but now I believe this appears to be not a problem to the expert with a good collection and good connections. It’s only for me and probably very few others.

This job is too big for one person, but it seems this forum is the wrong place for it too.

Or it’s the wrong time.

Eventually the sun will die who cares then about sarracenias?

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I don't think this forum is the wrong place or the wrong time,its one of the best places to start.

What you fail to recognise is,

not every collector is fully computer literate,especially some of the older ones.It is almost second nature to the younger generation,but some find it hard work(me included)

Some people don't have the time to take hundreds of pictures,several times a year,then put them on computer with their description and dates etc,we have to work and have families to take care of.

But also in fifty years or so,just looking at a picture and reading a description doesn't mean you will have the original plant,it might look the same,but IT could be a different clone totally.

My very first sarra is 20years old,so its nearly half way to your target,if you want you are welcome to come and photograph my collection whenever you want.

But don't leave it 50 years,i wont be in!

ada

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Guest partisangardener

Thanks a lot, I will have a problem popping in frequently I live a bit far away (south of Germany). This would be more a job for Jearrard with his deconfusifier. But I fear its too much work for him on his own.

That’s why I asked to pin it up at the beginning of the sarracenia fred together with the other one http://cpphotofinder.com/

And hopefully some more people will think about it. Maybe then some of us will work together to get this project running.

I myself just started again after some twenty years and I have no sarras I would include.

I do grow some from selfed seeds purchased by P.....v with an ID from them. Two or three mother plants have such from Mike King too, the others only the place they are supposed to be from.

But I have no clones from the wild. Some of the mother plants where tagged as from the same place, but I haven’t seen the mother plants nor photos from them, jet. At the moment it wont help me much because I don’t know (jet ?)where to find reliable pictures to compare.

The seedlings will not look the same this I know but I would feel much better with these little plants If I would know anything.

Since I just found out that there is something like clones from a place to be bought, but not that easy.

I asked there for the ID problem. He explained me his numbers are the ones he gave the plants in the order the came in his collection. Some are from M.K. and his ID he added too.

Some days ago I asked him if he would tell me where he got his other plants from and if he would include photos of his plant in his homepage (there are some but without his code) or send them to buyers.

I believe that he is a reliable grower and will see what happens.

Since its only a year that I found out that there is something like clones from a place to be bought.

Two or three weeks ago, I realised the problem when I saw several different clones with the same ID in the internet.......

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Unfortunately cultivar, short for cultivated variety, has an official and specific meaning, you should see these sites: ICNCP and ICPS Cultivar Page. To use it outside this official meaning can certainly cause a bit of confusion.

I believe your objective is commendable. I feel that you will have quite a chore achieving your goals. I certainly hope that you manage it. I plan to watch your progress and contribute as best I can.

Edited by Joseph Clemens
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:biggrin:

Unfortunately cultivar, short for cultivated variety, has an official and specific meaning, you should see these sites: ICNCP and ICPS Cultivar Page. To use it outside this official meaning can certainly cause a bit of confusion.

I believe your objective is commendable. I feel that you will have quite a chore achieving your goals. I certainly hope that you manage it. I plan to watch your progress and contribute as best I can.

Cultivars or locality place forms are very different things ,i think this is explane a few times allready on this topic!

cheers Willy

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Guest partisangardener

I have looked up the site and there are some cultivars from locations included like Sarracenia alata ‘Night’ for example.

That’s why there is a misunderstanding. I had the meaning of cultivar from Wikipedia (German) a cultivar can be a selected plant from the wild or a selection out of seeds from the wild and of course all the other horticultural explanations. Sorry I am no native speaker so I don’t know about the usual explanations.

Another reason, that I am not the perfect person to do this work.

The description there is just what I liked to have in such site too few photos but otherwise very sufficient.

If there is a way to select only the "wild" cultivars please tell me. To write a description as good with other words is just beyond my language ability.

After my experience with this thread, I doubt it very much to be allowed to use their text.

I expect answers like Phil’s:

”I think you are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist, as well as one which can never be fixed.”

I doubt it very much; that my English is good enough to make them understand what I want.

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I have looked up the site and there are some cultivars from locations included like Sarracenia alata ‘Night’ for example.

That’s why there is a misunderstanding. I had the meaning of cultivar from Wikipedia (German) a cultivar can be a selected plant from the wild or a selection out of seeds from the wild and of course all the other horticultural explanations. Sorry I am no native speaker so I don’t know about the usual explanations.

Another reason, that I am not the perfect person to do this work.

The description there is just what I liked to have in such site too few photos but otherwise very sufficient.

If there is a way to select only the "wild" cultivars please tell me. To write a description as good with other words is just beyond my language ability.

After my experience with this thread, I doubt it very much to be allowed to use their text.

I expect answers like Phil’s:

”I think you are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist, as well as one which can never be fixed.”

I doubt it very much; that my English is good enough to make them understand what I want.

I understand what you try to do and i think Phil understand this to ,but i think it s not possible.

This cultivars ,select out of the wild have allready a very good discripsion because she are cultivares,so for this it s no need to make some.

I think what you trying to do is very good when you looks only for the special marks for each different locality place ,some have a red lip , other place meaby a red lid etc.,if you can make a database whit all different marks from all different places then it s very usefull.

I think this is what you main,that you can see from what place this plant can be,but you can not set a label whit this place iff you are not sure off this ,on the other hand ,you can check iff you have the real thing and thats the good thing,meaby it s this what you want to do?

Cheers Will

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I've been thinking some more about what you are describing.

It sounds like you desire an extremely detailed description of all the species plants that originate in each distinct natural source location, so they can then be identified as to source location, forevermore. With one intention being the ablity to ensure the genetic survival of these distinctive source plants.

What strikes me as a major obstacle to achieving your goal, is that many plants from various original locations share almost identical attributes.

I believe that your objective would be more achievable, if all plants were collected together with GPS location data and that the GPS data were always kept with the original plants.

Another possible problem would be to maintain genetic purity of these original plants. Great care would need to be taken whenever generating seed. Parent plants would need to be from the same GPS location or selfed. Either way, caution and special procedures would need to be utilized to help exclude stray pollen from undesirable parents from contaminating the seed.

The strongest obstacle to achieving this objective would likely be obtaining consensus and unilateral cooperation with the procedures necessary to perpetuate the goals of this proposed program.

Edited by Joseph Clemens
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Guest partisangardener

The ideal way to do it is not possible that I knew from the Beginning. But cultivars stay probably a longer time in the "market" So I choose these. This site you mentioned fits my needs perfect, apart from a tiny lack of Photos under different conditions (sometimes? I haven’t checked jet). I would take in some more plants from the wild which are more widely distributed and are maybe not worth being a cultivar for missing outstanding features apart from their origin. So this site does not fit all the needs.

I would not include similar looking plants in any breeding just for fitting this description. Only exclude the ones which fit not (under different conditions tested wood be even more exact).

Many growers I know have no idea about growing pure bred local variations. Most times the data are just lost because they seemed not important. Or are they sometimes, only given away to expert growers (for safety)?

Your gps idea Joseph is good but I think not realistic and maybe not necessary (but it could be on the site if obtained). Since, there have been many locations destroyed and so populations divided which had before some genetically flow between them, I think this is not necessary, but this is just my opinion and should be discussed before starting to breed.

This would give a greater genetic pool for each "local"variation. But this data will be found, I hope, if there was a possible connection.

Until genetic research will confirm as fact.

If we could agree to a common ID for such plants which is on the label, data would not so easy be lost if the clones are spread or something happens to the collector (at first or second place does not matter, its no need to disturb collectors habits).

It would even help if only two or three would start it and such a site would exist to keep the data(a consensus is somethig which has to grow. As preconditon no civilisation would have happend ) .

Just two numbers on the label would tell the whole story, I think this would catch and everybody would know what plant is meant without having to write the whole story to every buyer. People like to have it more easily in combination with more possible data etc. and so it will catch on if such a project is to become reality.

At the moment I strongly doubt the beginning after the feed back up to now.

But if I would have to start from scrap, with my multiple disabilities, I think it will fail. It’s not my language I have to write in and the misunderstandings don’t help the cause ;) and I dont have a collection to begin with.

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Guest partisangardener

The naming of cultivars with alike description, should be done to more plants (widely distributed clones from the wild, as many as possible in the end) and I would like not a name but an ID like is in most collections but not a different one for each collector. They could keep theirs but if this site exists people would add this common number to it because it would be less work for everyone.

Description should be made by a native speaker ;)

It is not meant to name alike clones and some wrong ones will be discovered by this way (different growing conditions, flower etc.).

Until genetic decoding will be cheap and good enough to be applied to plants of private collectors.:)

Honesty and accuracy will still be needed, and are most important until then, but it will be less writing for everyone. Even some misspelled names and numbers might be corrected that way. Every knowledge contributed to this site would be more accessible and less likely to be lost.

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Guest partisangardener

Thank you for your kind words. I think it is not an intelligent approach as non-member to try this. But I will join soon (a newcomer’s stand is not much better). But anyway I will have a go if I can make out of this thread an intelligible proposal. If someone (or several) would be so kind to check it here before I send it to them. It will take maybe some days, until my first approach will be written here now that I see the obstacles involved.

Until then thanks a lot.

Axel

Edited by partisangardener
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