japetus Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 Due to the fact that most of these plants tend to develop mechanisms to lure and trap insects, wouldn't it be more appropriate to call then insectivorous? Of course there are the occasional animal casualties, small reptiles, amphibians, birds that can be trapped by persuing an insect as well as myriapods, slugs etc. But wouldn't you thing that the main prey of these plants are insects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimfoxy Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 Many attract/prey on other invertebrates; not just insects e.g. Utricularia, Genlisea. There are many invertebrates that people often mistake for insects that are caught by other genera e.g. harvestmen (Opiliones) - these are caught by VFTs, for example, possibly lured in the conventional way, possibly lured by old prey. Pinguicula and other ground hugging sticky traps capture jumping invertebrates as well as insects. There are probably many other examples. Maybe even S. psittacina when flooded? It is just the traps we see above ground/water level that are mainly insectivorous. Carnivorous is the best description I think. It is a good work to use for something that preys on the animal kingdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 somebody posted recently that the main prey of vfts are spiders, so not insects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFS Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 Certainly my VFTs that live outside catch other arthropods such as millipedes and spiders as often as they catch insects. And my Utricularia don't eat much in the way of insects, either. It's a neverending argument anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diva Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 i read somewhere (schnell maybe?) that someone had done a study of VFT prey and where the plants grew in exposed open positions they caught mainly flying insects and where the plants grew in tall grass and vedgetation that the main prey where mainly spiders, beetles and millipedes etc. my greenhouse plants catch mainly flies, then harvesters and the odd spider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amar Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 (edited) the term carnivorous is just higher up in the hirarchy. If a plant is carnivorous, then it will eat insects and spiders and all the other non-insect creepy crawlies, like millepedes and also very thin slivers of chateaubriand and sushi. . the term insectivorous may sound more elegant, but just isn't precise enough. Edited August 17, 2010 by Amar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James O'Neill Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 (edited) My part in the argument: There is the order of mammals insectivores (Insectivora), which includes hedgehogs, shrews, moles and desmans. These are called insectivores, yet, as we know, moles like their worms, and shrews will eat virtually any invertebrate, even if it is many times their size. Hedgehogs will take toads and frogs and young birds, but these aren't exactly insects either. So in my mind, insectivorous is an appropriate term for our plants, but carnivorous is a wholly appropriate name as well. It is what you prefer I think. I continue to use carnvivorous anyway. Edited August 17, 2010 by James O'Neill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loligo1964 Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 Considering the vast number of spiders -- arachnids, not insects -- many of my plants have captured this Summer, "carnivorous" seems the more fitting term . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japetus Posted August 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 My only personal objection to " carnivorous" is the connection it implies -to people that don't know- to flesh eating animals, intriguing them to feed raw meat their VFTs :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 Carnivorous plants were originally widely described as insectivorous, but it is just the accepted wisdom to now call them carnivorous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James O'Neill Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I think insectivory is the preying upon of insects and relatives - i.e. other arthropods. After looking it up, here is a quote from wikipedia: An insectivore is a type of carnivore with a diet that consists chiefly of insects and similar small creatures I don't think it is sensible to think of insectivory as only feeding upon insects - there would be very few insectivores then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimfoxy Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insectivorous provides four definitions; only one of which would fit. At the end of the day it does not matter but, for me, because insectivorous has 'insect' in the name, and this is very well defined, I find the name misleading and too narrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallsg7 Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 The main prey of these plants in the wild are insects yes...except for dionaea.Also nepenthes frequently catches larger prey.So a wider,broader term is probably more accurate to encompass all cps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loakesy Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Not forgetting, of course, that it's not unusual for some of the larger Nepenthes to eat small animals (rats, mice, frogs) and that others like Roridula thrive on insect faeces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsivertsen Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 I might add that a paper was recently published on Aldrovanda capturing and eating small fish fry, and they are already on the record for capturing various crustaceans and mollusks as well as insect larvae. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchasselblad74 Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Due to the fact that most of these plants tend to develop mechanisms to lure and trap insects, wouldn't it be more appropriate to call then insectivorous?Of course there are the occasional animal casualties, small reptiles, amphibians, birds that can be trapped by persuing an insect as well as myriapods, slugs etc. But wouldn't you thing that the main prey of these plants are insects? I read this article that Nep Rajah in Mt Kinabalu, have evolved to have a mutualistic relationship with a mountain shrew. it was discovered that the shrew is lured by the sweet nectar produced by the pitcher and while the animal feeds, it defecates exactly into the pitcher. "The distance of the pitcher mouth to the exudate of the pitcher is the same as the average body length of the mountain shrew. These proportions holds true for Nep Lowii and Nep Macrophylla.....and it was thought that the shrew was actually marking its territory as it deposits feces into the pitcher, providing rich nitrogenous material to the plant"(Wikepedia/Nep Rajah). So In my opinion, CPs are not just Carnivorous and Insectivorous, but instead Omnivorous Plants...... DexFC(dchasselblad74) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James O'Neill Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Crapivorous plants as well. N. lowii also has a symbiotic relationship with tree shrews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimfoxy Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Interesting but I believe that these Nepenthes attract, kill and absorb nutrients from prey as well as having these rare relationships? The relationship would, therefore, not exclude them from the category of carnivorous plants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James O'Neill Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 They still do catch prey, yes. So they are still carnivorous. But I find it hard to imagine a fly falling into an N. lowii upper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchasselblad74 Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Due to the fact that most of these plants tend to develop mechanisms to lure and trap insects, wouldn't it be more appropriate to call then insectivorous?Of course there are the occasional animal casualties, small reptiles, amphibians, birds that can be trapped by persuing an insect as well as myriapods, slugs etc. But wouldn't you thing that the main prey of these plants are insects? Omnivorous-consuming just about anything.... DexFC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimfoxy Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 (edited) Omnivorous-consuming just about anything.... For example, consuming nutrients through roots or leaves, just like every plant that exists? Mmmm, not specific enough for me. Might as well just call them plants. Edited August 20, 2010 by jimfoxy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James O'Neill Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 So how do you seriously specify N. lowii or N. rajah that consumes droppings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchasselblad74 Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 (edited) Well, think about it....many kinds of CPs consume many things, whether it be bugs that were specifically lured with plant mechanisms, such as nectar glands....or droppings from birds or shrews into Nep pitchers lured by the same nectar mechanism...or yes even through roots, ex; coffee drink poured in roots of Nepenthes...and even diluted fertilizer solution through foliar feeding....and Sarracenia pitchers getting filled with flies, then turning brown and rotted in the middle, and eventually breaking and tipping over and dumping rotted flies unto the top of its roots, in turn introducing nitrogenous fly compost to itself....or even tiny tree frogs defecating in the collected pools of "carnivorous" bromeliads, which acts as fertilizers, without harming the tree frog.....This is what I meant by CPs in general, consume just about anything....hence Omnivorous.... DexFC Edited August 21, 2010 by dchasselblad74 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James O'Neill Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Although I don't think roots should have naything to do with it, as Jim said. Every plant would have to be classed as omnivorous then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimfoxy Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Genlisea, Utricularia - two examples of adapted trapping 'roots'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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