D.ascendens in Diamantina and maybe hybrids?

[Fernando Rivadavia]

Hello everyone,

Not sure how many of you have seen the topic regarding Dani O's hybridization of D.ascendens and D.schwackei (http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=34002). The plants look beautiful and remind me very much of some of the D.ascendens "forms" I've seen in the wild, making me rethink some of the extremes observed over the years. Maybe only DNA tests will be able to really tell us how much (if any) hybrid influence is present in many of these plants. But I wanted to share some pics of odd D.ascendens from the Diamantina region, since we're on the subject.

The natural habitat of D.ascendens around Diamantina is along semi-shaded waterfalls and streamsides, but they are also common deep inside gulches. This is a (accidentally) man-made habitat , but D.ascendens loves it! The plants don't look too nice there though because of the shade.

One such gulch exists more or less in the middle of the only area where I know D.schwackei to occur in Diamantina, where I've seen ~10 small populations in an area of ~1km in diameter, always growing in its typical dry sandy soil with white quartz gravel. Although most D.ascendens grow deep in the gulch, there is an odd population growing right above the gulch, in a wet sandy & sunny area. These plants are deep-red in color and the leaves seem shorter and wider. Although the scapes are smooth (and not hairy like Dani's hybrids), I wonder if these plants are not a hybrid population of D.ascendens X D.schwackei (or D.tomentosa?)?

Here are some pics below -- sorry about the bad quality, but I just scanned these from some old prints...

D.ascendens from deep in the gulch:

D.ascendens(?) from the sunny & sandy population:

D.ascendens(?) from the sunny & sandy site (right) and 2 D.ascendens from the gulch (left), the leftmost plant being from a very wet & shady spot and thus showing a bit of an elongated stem:

Here's a view of what the Diamantina area looks like:

And here's a shot of a natural D.ascendens habitat along a stream near Diamantina:

At this natural site, I found the narrow-leaved form of D.ascendens common to the Diamantina area (and which also grows in the gulches):

But there were also some plants among these which had more compact rosettes and which I wonder if they were not hybrids, maybe with D.tomentosa:

Notice that the ones with compact rosettes had hairy scapes (the narrow ones didn't, unfortunately, so I couldn't compare):

Hope to confuse you all, :)

Fernando Rivadavia

[Jefforever]

Beautiful in situ photos.

Interesting observations. :)

[jimscott]

That's a little different. Will you be around when the flower opens?

[Iggy]

Great report Fernando!

I've never seen a D.ascendens with narrow leaves!!

But the ones with hairy scapes are even more freaky.

D.tomentosa has also forms with hairy and hairless scapes,maybe it's also

possible in the ascendens group? But I think nobody grows D.ascendens with hairy

scapes in cultivation ( except Dani :-)

Mysterious!! Thanks for sharing your pics!!

Iggy

[Christian]

Hi Fernando,

very interesting topic! The plants remind me a bit of a hybrid i made between D. ascendens (Ribeirao Pires) and D. tomentosa (Morro Do Jambeiro) last year. Sadly i was quite busy the last weeks so i missed the flower! As you can see, the flower scape is a bit hairy. The flowers did not produce any seeds, btw.

(sorry for the bad quality, these pictures have been taken today the snowy germany - i don't know anymore what the sun looks like!)

Christian

Edited February 14, 2010 by Christian

[Fernando Rivadavia]

Hello Christian,

Wow, thanks for the pic, what a nice plant! Now THAT looks like what I would expect an ascendens X tomentosa hybrid to look like, it's so perfectly intermediate!

Thanks,

Fernando

[Daniel O.]

Hi Fernando,

yeah, now we have much more confusion.

Many thanks for these pictures, so theoretical there are excisting places where D. ascendens is growing really very close to D. schwackei.

The leafes of my plants are also shorter and a little bit wider.

If you remember the first pictures i´ve shown from my hairy hybrid the plants have also been deep red but because of the very long flower stalks i´ve had to remove the pot, now the distance to the lights is much bigger and of course their colouration is not so great in the moment.

Here is again one of the plant pictures (in front are the deep red coloured hybrids, in the back a "normal" D. ascendens is visible which is more greenish). I really don´t know where this deep red colouration is coming from after both parents are not very deep red coloured, but your "possible" hybrid plants are also deep red coloured.

After all i´m really happy that the seed i´ve collected has germinated.

Perhaps i´ve to repot my plants to make better (perhaps more detailled) pictures of a single plant.

Fernando, you are saying that these red plants you have found there have not had hairy flower stalks, but it looks like as not all plants have been in flower when you have been there, and perhaps back crossings are also possible.

Christan, really a nice plant/hybrid you have there, is it the only plant of this hybrid you are growing. What a pity you have not received any seed.

As i´ve mentioned in the other topic i´ve also crossed the hairless D. ascendens "Bandeira Peak?" form with D. tomentosa, but the plants are still to small to flower. BTW, they are also deep red coloured.

But i´ve a question Fernando, so far as i know somewhere (i don´t remember where) you have mentioned that the ´Ribeirão Pires, São Paulo´ form has in fact another location that is called ´Sao Bernardo do Campo, Caminho do Mar, Sao Paulo, Brazil´ and in my topic Andreas has mentioned that this form is producing hairy flower stalks. For my sadness my form from this location has not flowered till now nethertheless it´s already adult.

Here the link to Stefan Ippenberger´s picture that Andreas posted in my topic:

http://freenet-homepage.de/byblis/dvillosagraoascend3p.jpg

So, but perhaps this plant already is a hybrid.

Best regards,

Dani

Edited February 15, 2010 by Daniel O.

[Fernando Rivadavia]

Hello Dani,

By no means am I saying that all (or any) D.ascendens with hairy scapes are of hybrid origin. Some of them maybe..

Best wishes,

Fernando

Edited August 13, 2010 by Fernando Rivadavia

[Fernando Rivadavia]

For anybody revisiting this topic, please check the link below for more info on the taxa of the D.villosa complex mentioned above: http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=51688

The plants we used to call "D.ascendens" are now called D.latifolia, since the true D.ascendens turned out to be something way more interesting, and hidden for nearly 200 years!

The red plants in the 2nd and 3rd pic above D.latifolia X D.tomentosa var.glabrata, while the ones with hairy flower scapes in the last 3 pics are D.latifolia X D.tomentosa var.tomentosa.

Best wishes,

Fernando Rivadavia