H1N1

[vraev]

Hi guys,

I just got my H1N1 vaccine yesterday. it was an adjuvanted vaccine with ALUM as the adjuvant. The vaccine is incubated in poultry eggs and preserved in a mercury based thymersol compound. The antigen itself is an inactivated strain of H1N1 which has been prepared by treatments with formaldehyde and some other compounds.

I have generally never had any adverse effects from vaccination. No pain or anything...things were just smooth. However...this is the first one where I am having a tough time. My arm where the intramuscular immunization is done is completely sore. It was sooo bad last night that I couldn't even sleep. The pain was intense. I also came down with chills inspite of sleeping under the sheets and I could feel that my temperature was slightly elevated. I did not want to take acetominophen because "Inflammation is good...thats the whole point of the adjuvant...create a robust immune response". But I caved at 6AM after hours of no sleep and took the pill and after a couple of hours...i could sense relief. A real drastic change.

Now...currently 28hrs after vaccination, apart from still lingering moderate pain that restricts the freedom of movement of my arm, I don't have any other adverse affects. I can clearly feel the axillary lymph node that is suddenly very tender (lymph node in your armpit). I can understand that this is a good thing as APCs that have picked up antigen in the muscle are now infiltrating into the lymph node and presenting them to Thelper cells.

As you can clearly guess, I am a grad student in immunology and this is the first time I am clearly tracing the path of the immune system in myself to this foreign antigen.

Now here is the moot point and the reason for this topic: Not everyone is having such adverse effects to this vaccine....there are quite a few with pain at the site of injection, but its not this bad. I am assuming the vaccine formulation is different at different parts of the world. I want to ask you people around the world to throw your 2 cents and share what kind of reactions did you have to the vaccine in your part of the world.

I am also thinking about a hypothesis that perhaps somehow my immune system already had exposure to this antigen and hence, my re-presentation through the vaccine, there is a potent memory cell response which is causing this intense inflammatory reactions.

regards,

Varun

[Trev]

Hi Varun,

There appears to be something strange going on with the flu vax in Ukraine.

In mid August an Israeli man called into a U.S. radio show and said he was a microbiologist who wanted to hand over evidence to a States Attorney regarding tainted H1N1 vaccines being produced by Baxter pharmaceutical. He claimed that that Baxter’s lab in the Ukraine was in fact preparing a bioweapon disguised as a vaccine. He maintained that the vaccine contained both adjuvants designed to weaken the immune system, and replicated RNA from the virus responsible for the 1918 global pandemic.

The TV put out a story that the man was suspected of making threats against the White House and was pulled from his car after an hours-long stand off in the parking lot of the Federal Building in West Los Angeles.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/m...59330.html&

Now there is a big outbreak on a new highly virulent strain of flu in Ukraine

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...eW-K9vVDUyCEcLQ

Edited November 5, 2009 by Trev

[mobile]

From your description of the vaccine, I presume it is different to this one but some of the adverse reactions seem to be the same: http://www.theflucase.com/index.php?option...105&lang=en?

Edited November 5, 2009 by mobile

[Mags]

I want to ask you people around the world to throw your 2 cents and share what kind of reactions did you have to the vaccine in your part of the world.

Im a med student and all front line medical staff in the UK have been offered the vaccination and many are currently getting vaccinated.

Most people have complained of pain +/- swelling at the injection site and maybe 15% have had mild flu symptoms (lethargy, sweating) lasting for 24 hours or so.

I haven't heard of any axillary lymphadenopathy but tbh no one is gonna bother looking unless they have a special interest...

Im gonna wait for a couple of weeks and if all is well then i'll take it

Edited November 5, 2009 by Mags

[vraev]

Hi guys,

hmm.....that issue in ukraine seems very freaky. wow!! but...seriously...you never know how much you can trust some of these things. Clearly there is an issue of the virulent flu strain, but you don't know how much you can trust these conspiracy theories.

Mobile, yes!! I have seen that exact page myself before. And as far as I am aware, this is one of the two vaccines that is being used here. I was immunized with this exact one. How do I know?? Before immunization, we get asked questions regarding allergies to any of those compounds. I am curious to know if its the same vaccine formulation + preperation used in UK and other places.

Hmm....glad to hear some feedback from someone in the healthcare department Mark. I thought its mandatory for healthcare workers in UK to take this vaccine? I think you might be right in deciding to wait on the vaccine. My reason as well as the reason of almost everyone who has taken it is that we do not want to bother risking degradation to other diseases such as pneumonia. Infact, one of the graduate students in my center...just across from my own lab came down with confirmed H1N1 and she was hospitalized for a couple of days due to pneumonia. SHe is slowly getting better....but eitherway...the damage that might be done by the immune system to get rid of the virus can be permanent.

However....the biggest cause of concern for me is the thimersol. It remains to be seen if we are all just going to be a huge experimental group exposed to a incompletely tested vaccine.

[Dieter]

However....the biggest cause of concern for me is the thimersol. It remains to be seen if we are all just going to be a huge experimental group exposed to a incompletely tested vaccine.

Hi Varun,

I certainly do not like the idea of mercury-containing ingredients in pharmaceuticals, but this information is just wrong: This very compound (Thimerosal/Thiomersal) is in use in vaccince for decades, nearly a century. More info can be found in the wiki link I added.

In my understanding many of the vaccines did pass a abbreviated clinical trial programme as otherwise the vaccines would only enter the market when they are no longer needed. Nevertheless, there are many different vaccines or vaccine variations on the market or in clinical trials in different countries. Here are some of the differences:

• different manufacturers
  
• with or without preservative
  
• with or without adjuvants
  
• different production methods (egg vs. cell systems)
  
• ...
  

All of these variations were tested in larger clinical trials, but not the combination of the current virus plus ingredients. For those, only small scale trials were made and/or are still ongoing. As you can imagine, otherwise we would not have any vaccine now, not even half a year after the outbreak was identified.

More or less each country ordered a special version, so it will be difficult to compare side effects without exaclty knowing which vaccine was used.

If you discuss reasonably, you can take your side whether adjuvants are good or not. On the one side, they make it possible to use lower amounts of the vaccine, which is in very limited supply. Therefore more people can get vaccinated. Sounds good to me, as there will never be enough vaccine. In addition, it may make it possible to offer better protection, especially once the virus changes. On the other hand, side effects may (or may not) be more severe and - at least according to my limited information - the adjuvants are not well tested for pregnant woman and small children.

The Ukraine bioweapon theory you mentioned just makes me sick. Is there someone with at least a limited degree of education really believing this? If you put the events the other way around, it sounds very different: There is a severe outbreak in the Ukraine and then this guy comes and offers his conspiracy theory.

Cheers

Dieter

[jimfoxy]

Is organic mercury:

1) mercury tied up in an organic compound?

2) mercury that has been nurtured without artificial pesticides or fertiliser?

Edited November 6, 2009 by jimfoxy

[vraev]

You do raise some good points Dieter.

yeah lol!! firstly I don't believe that Ukraine conspiracy theory either. I guess I didn't really word it in a correct way. But I was also saying... "there is clearly a virulent flu strain...but does it necessarily correlate with that vaccine?"

Well... you are right about the limited supply of vaccine that is available. I guess the unadjuvanted group will have to receive the second boosting shot to generate a similar level of protection against the virus. The main reason for the use of an adjuvant in almost all vaccines is to prime a strong immune response. If I remember correctly, if you immunize a person with a inactivated strain of virus, that alone is not necessarily enough to produce a strong long lasting memory immune response. However, the use of adjuvants drives immune cells to the area causing inflammation and seemingly drive better immune responses.

You are right about the reason for the limited clinical data on the vaccine. Yes!! They do want to get the vaccine out as soon as possible before the cold weather kicks in. Apparently the predictions are that the H1N1 cases will raise in the coming holiday season and hence canada was among the first few nations to push the vaccines to the general public. I guess my concern was very much based on those few studies that have shown the effect of mercury on neural degeneration. Hence i was wondering how are governments around the world tackling this situation for their people. But interesting link you have provided...I didn't know that the halflife of ethylmercury is so low. So this would mean that the concerns of a vaccine based longterm effect on neural degeneration and autism is not necessarily correlative.

Btw...did you get vaccinated yourself? Or are you planning on waiting before getting the shot? Any idea of what they use in germany? A similar vaccine?

cheers,

v

[will9]

Hello ,i have my vaccine yesterday and have no pain or something els at all,not any effects on me, I am born before 1957 ,meaby i am aimmune to this virus allready?

Friendly regards Willy

[jimfoxy]

Has the cause of Guillain–Barré syndrome from certain previous flu vaccinations (e.g. 1976 USA Swine flu vaccination) been understood yet?

[manders]

Organic mercury is mercury tied up in an organic molecule.

The thing about mercury poisoning is that the half life of mercury is very short, but the damage is cumulative. So repeated exposure causes increasingly severe damage. Many years ago I was doing research on fastbreeder reactor design and used mercury in an experimental rig. My blood mercury levels were above the permitted legal working levels. Not a big deal, but I did change my job!

[Dieter]

Has the cause of Guillain–Barré syndrome from certain previous flu vaccinations (e.g. 1976 USA Swine flu vaccination) been understood yet?

As far as I understand, the answer is yes. As a consequence, the vaccine are no much better purified with the result that some need an adjuvant (this role was earlier taken over by impurities). Please correct me if I got that wrong.

Btw...did you get vaccinated yourself? Or are you planning on waiting before getting the shot? Any idea of what they use in germany? A similar vaccine?

In Germany we will be vaccinated with pandemrix (a vaccine with adjuvant and Thiomersal). 50 million doses were ordered (for 80 million people), but they are still in the early stages of delivery. Currently, in most regions the vaccination is still ongoing for specific parts of the population considered vital for the infrastructure (fire fighters, police, health care personnal, ...). The vaccination is getting now better available for the general public, but appearently it can be very difficult to find a doctor for the vaccination. Other regions are better than that, but then they do not have enough vaccine available...

I intend to get a shot myself, but currently I do not know when and where.

The thing about mercury poisoning is that the half life of mercury is very short, but the damage is cumulative.

This is pretty much was I learned as well as an undergrad. The half life often is long enough for the organic mercury compound to enter the CNS and then it gets degraded. The mercury salts will stay in the CNS more or less for ever, hence the cumulation, and will do their damage there.

The message we get here is that the amount of mercury in one vaccine shot is much smaller then the dose we get each week from food, but in my opinion any organic mercury should be avoided whenever possible. I was still at the university when this happened and it certainly made me very careful.

However, one thing should be noted, there are a huge differences between thiomersal and dimethylmercury, and, of course, the dimethylmercury dose was much higher compared to anything we are usually exposed to.

Cheers

Dieter