Iggy Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Now the interesting thing is that my plant has produced seed this time (of course i´ve tried to self them again), not a lot, but it´s looking good and healthy. A part of them i´ve sown out these days and of course i hope that they will germinate. Hi Dani, Congrats!! Well done. I hope they'll germinate . Also the hybrid is very interesting, I grow the same "location" ascendens and I've never seen hairy flowerstalks. Very interesting!! Regards, Iggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisscool_38 Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Some fantastic plants Daniel That's a great news that you obtained seeds as D. schwackei is still rare in culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel O. Posted December 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 (edited) Many thanks to all of you. Sebastian, i don´t have missed them too because i´ve known that everything will be all right; only watering once a week, that´s all. Iggy, good to hear that your plants of this "location" don´t have hairy flowerstalks too. Do you remember, this crossing was your suggestion. Last year i´ve had the choice between D. tomentosa var. tomentosa and this D. ascendens form as a parent for this crossing and you answered that it would be great to have a D. ascendens with hairy flower stalks. Aymeric, i really hope that they will germinate because leaf cuttings are not a good method for this species. Fernando, thanks for the hint, these days i was also thinking that probably the seed shape will give a more detailed result. Probably there will be seed, the seed capsules seem to be swollen. Do all forms of D. ascendens have an elongated seed form? If there will be seed, of course i´ll take pictures and i´ll compare it with both "posssible" parents. Several weeks ago you have mentioned that the hairs of some D. ascendens forms tend to fall off the scapes with age (deciduous). Till now they still are hairy, even up to the top of the flower stalks but of course there are less than in the lower part of the flower stalks. Are these hairy forms of D. ascendens you have seen in the wild also slightely hairy up to the top of the flower stalk? And here are the flower pictures: On the next pictures it´s better visible that the hairs are reaching the top of the flower stalks. Sorry for the bad picture quality (my camera was not able to focus both flower stalks correctly, i need a new one), but i wanted to show the hairyness in comparison to one of my D. tomentosa var. tomentosa which is also in flower at the moment; the flower stalk in the background is from D. tomentosa var. tomentosa ´Morro Do Jambeiro, Minas Gerais, Brazil´. They are crossing at a high of about 15cm; both are similar hairy. Best regards, Dani Edited December 16, 2009 by Daniel O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Hey Dani, Thanks for the beautiful new pics! Nice to see that the ultra-hairy and huge D.tomentosa var.tomentosa from Morro do Jambeiro in Grão Mogol is still in cultivation. I collected this 15 years ago when I 1st went to look for D.graomogolensis. Fernando, thanks for the hint, these days i was also thinking that probably the seed shape will give a more detailed result. Probably there will be seed, the seed capsules seem to be swollen.Do all forms of D. ascendens have an elongated seed form? If there will be seed, of course i´ll take pictures and i´ll compare it with both "posssible" parents. Yes, the seed of D.ascendens are all triangular-fusiform, including D.villosa (but not D.graomogolensis). Here's a typical D.ascendens seed: For seed shape of D.schwackei, see figure 3 at the end of this link: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cpn/Speci...37n2p36_43.html Unfortunately the seeds are not all that different in shape, so it won't be too easy to tell if they're intermediate... Several weeks ago you have mentioned that the hairs of some D. ascendens forms tend to fall off the scapes with age (deciduous). Till now they still are hairy, even up to the top of the flower stalks but of course there are less than in the lower part of the flower stalks. Yes the base is usually hairier in all species it seems, for whatever reason. They tend to fall off a little later, when drying out. Are these hairy forms of D. ascendens you have seen in the wild also slightely hairy up to the top of the flower stalk? Only the hairier ones, that have a lot of hairs near the base. It's a similar case with D.tomentosa. Best wishes, Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Rohrbacher Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Daniel: Congratulations for your pictures and 'possible hybrid'. Fernando: I read your species description again, very good, only now (fully) understand the criticism of Silva ... ... I will make descriptions too Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel O. Posted December 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Many thanks Carlos and Fernando. The D. tomentosa var. tomentosa from Morro do Jambeiro in Grão Mogol is in my opinion the most beautiful D. tomentosa var. tomentosa, really very nice coloured and very hairy. Here are some older pictures: http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?s...mp;hl=tomentosa Thanks for the seed pictures, yes, they are really very similar in appearance, only a little bit shorter. But i´m afraid my camera will not be able to take well enough pictures, but of course i´ll try it. But perhaps i´ve to ask in the university for a better method. They tend to fall off a little later, when drying out. So i´ve to wait untill the hole flower stalk has dried out, i will not cut them after i´ve collected the seed. Only the hairier ones, that have a lot of hairs near the base. It's a similar case with D.tomentosa. I´ve totally forgotten to inform you about the crossing between D. tomentosa var. tomentosa and D. tomentosa var. glabrata. It seem to have worked. My D. tomentosa var. tomentosa from Morro do Jambeiro was the mother plant; the first plant of the resulting plants (it´s still a small plant) has started to flower (it will open it´s first flower tomorrow), it has a 13cm long flower stalk, only the first 6cm of the flower stalk are slightely hairy, the rest is glandular. Best regards, Dani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Hello Dani, >Thanks for the seed pictures, yes, they are really very similar in appearance, only a little bit shorter. But i´m afraid my camera will not be able to take well enough pictures, but of course i´ll try it. But perhaps i´ve to ask in the university for a better method. Well, the shape is a little different too, that may help. >So i´ve to wait untill the hole flower stalk has dried out, i will not cut them after i´ve collected the seed. Why? You want to se ethe hairs falling off one by one? :) >I´ve totally forgotten to inform you about the crossing between D. tomentosa var. tomentosa and D. tomentosa var. glabrata. It seem to have worked. My D. tomentosa var. tomentosa from Morro do Jambeiro was the mother plant; the first plant of the resulting plants (it´s still a small plant) has started to flower (it will open it´s first flower tomorrow), it has a 13cm long flower stalk, only the first 6cm of the flower stalk are slightely hairy, the rest is glandular. Cool!! I made this hybrid myself years ago, but wasn't able to get seed. PLEASE try self-pollinating the flowers to see if the hybrid is fertile, this is very important taxonomically! In fact, that goes for all the hybrids you make w/ S.American sundews: please always try to find out if they're fertile. I would really appreciate it if you could collect this info! :) Best Wishes, Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel O. Posted February 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) Hi all, i´ve taken a few pictures of the seed i´ve collected from my plants, sorry, the quality of the pictures is not the best, but better pictures have not been possible with my equipment. The pictures are from D. ascendens, D. schwackei and the "possible" hybrid between D. ascendens and D. schwackei. In my opinion they are slightely different, especially the size is different. D. ascendens "Bandeira Peak???", relatively huge D. schwackei ´Diamantina, Minas Gerais, Brazil´ The "possible" hybrid, D. ascendens x schwackei, a more brownish colour And all together (left: D. schwackei, in the middle: the "possible" hybrid, right: D. ascendens), the colour differs a little bit What do you think? Best regards, Dani Edited February 8, 2010 by Daniel O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Looks like you may have a good hybrid and that it even produces seed!! :) I hope they germinate. Best wishes, Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudo klasovity Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Well done Dani! I am not an expert at this, but according to pictures, the hybrid's seed looks just like transient shape between the 2 mother plants! My guess would be that there is a fat chance of you getting the seeds of hybrid plant. Another question is, how viable the seed will be, lets pray for germination now I attempted to cross d. ascendens x d. tomentosa var. glabrata and the seedpod was full of seeds, but I didnt take the picture. Now I am waiting for potential germination. Good luck Dani! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel O. Posted February 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 (edited) Hi all, Dusan, good luck for a successful germination. I´ve also tried a crossing between D. ascendens and D. tomentosa var. tomentosa, but the plants are really slow growers at the moment. Perhaps they will also look somehow like D. ascendens with hairy flower stalks. Last time i´ve taken pictures of the seed with more than one single seed to show a bigger divergence, BTW my choice was absolutely casual. Good to hear that you are thinking that it perhaps could be a successful hybrid, in my opinion the seed of these 3 plants is really different, a little bit in the shape but more bit in the size and the colour, but of course i´m not an expert. And here is a small update, a few newer pictures of the plants. My D. schwackei is growing at the same place (the same distance to the lights), but it has now a much better colouration than before it has started to flower (it was very greenish), perhaps because of the much lower temperatures during winter nights in the moment? Now the tips of the leafes are slightely orange coloured, the older ones are even reddish. 10 plants (and several to follow) of my D. ascendens "Bandeira Peak?" are also in flower at the moment; like i´ve mentioned before, the flower stalks are absolutely without any hairs and the plants are looking nearly identical nethertheless most of them are grown from seed. I´m growing this form now for about 7 years and i´ve reproduced it through seed nearly every year, but the result has never been a plant which has had hairy flower stalks. And here are a few pictures of the possible "hybrid". The 3 plants have started to flower again, and their flower stalks are hairy like last time. The colouration of the plants in the moment is not so deep red like last time because of the now bigger distance to the lights (because of the very long flower stalks, more than 30 cm), but the plants are not getting bigger in diameter for the moment (perhaps they are already adult). In my opinion it´s a little bit strange that these 3 plants have flowered only 8 months after i´ve sown out the seed, really easy and very fast growers (like hybrids?), the "normal" D. ascendens "Bandeira Peak?" are not flowering after 8 months under my conditions, they really need much more time untill they flower. In one of the pictures there is visible a "normal" D. ascendens "Bandeira Peak?" which has much longer and more erect leafes, but it has not flowered till now (not mature enough), but i guess that the flower stalk of this plant (when it will flower one day) will be hairless because it´s looking like all my other plants from this "location" form. at the left side it´s visible a "normal" D. ascendens "Bandeira Peak?" Fernando, you have mentioned that the hairs of these hairy D. ascendens forms you have observed in nature are deciduous and that they tend to fall off the scapes with age and by the time the scapes are dry nearly all of them will have gone? The hairs of the flower stalks of these 3 plants are not deciduous at all, like you can see in these pictures the hairs of the older flower stalks (the brownish ones) are still there nethertheless they have dried completely. Looks like you may have a good hybrid and that it even produces seed!! :) I hope they germinate. Yes, the seed from these 3 plants is germinating in very good quantity, i´ve spotted really a lot of seedlings in the pot i´ve sown them out. Best regards, Dani Edited February 11, 2010 by Daniel O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 Hey Dani, beautiful plants!!! I do believe you have the hybrid and they make me doubt the ID of some "D.ascendens" forms I've seen in the wild, hehehe! The hairs can be deciduous, but not completely (that is, not all of them). They often just reduce a bit in number -- and the older the scape, the more they drop off. Best wishes, Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel O. Posted February 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 (edited) Fernando, many thanks for your opinion. Later it will be interesting to see if all the new seedlings of this "hybrid" will also have hairy flower stalks like their mother plants. I do believe you have the hybrid and they make me doubt the ID of some "D.ascendens" forms I've seen in the wild, hehehe! I really like D. ascendens because of it´s very big variation (so many locations in different states), but perhaps some of them are really hybrids. Perhaps hybrids with D. tomentosa var. tomentosa, D. tomentosa var. glabrata, the D. hirtella var. hirtella or even D. schwackei. I was always wondering why this species has such a big variation at the different locations. Hybrids with D. tomentosa var. tomentosa, the D. hirtella var. hirtella or D. schwackei theoretical could have hairy flower stalks, like my plants do. In an older topic you have mentioned that D. ascendens is also growing in the Diamantina area (i know it´s a big area), where also D. schwackei and others like D. tomentosa var. tomentosa and D. hirtella var. hirtella are growing. http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?s...dens+diamantina Are they perhaps growing close to each other? You have mentioned that in the Diamantina area you have found only one location for D. schwackei, but perhaps there are existing more locations where they are growing together with some other species. Perhaps really a few location forms of D. ascendens are in fact hybrids, like the hybrid between D. tomentosa var. tomentosa and D. grantsaui or perhaps the D. hirtella-complex which are producing viable seed, like my plants do. BTW, i´ve also crossed D. ascendens with D. tomentosa var. tomentosa; the resulting plants are still relatively small, but perhaps the result will also be a plant which is similar to D. ascendens but with a hairy flower stalk. Best regards, Dani Edited February 13, 2010 by Daniel O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Rivadavia Posted February 14, 2010 Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 Hello Dani, >Hybrids with D. tomentosa var. tomentosa, the D. hirtella var. hirtella or D. schwackei theoretical could have hairy flower stalks, like my plants do. I doubt there would be hybrids between the tetraploid group (villosa complex, chrysolepis complex, graminifolia complex, tomentosa, schwackei, montana, grantsaui, sp.Cipó, sp.Shibata) and the diploid group (communis complex, hirtella complex, cayennensis complex, capillaris, intermedia, brevifolia). >In an older topic you have mentioned that D. ascendens is also growing in the Diamantina area (i know it´s a big area), where also D. schwackei and others like D. tomentosa var. tomentosa and D. hirtella var. hirtella are growing. Are they perhaps growing close to each other? > >You have mentioned that in the Diamantina area you have found only one location for D. schwackei, but perhaps there are existing more locations where they are growing together with some other species. In response to this, I just posted a topic: http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=35508 D.ascendens may owe some of it's variability to hybridization with other species and backcrossing events... Best wishes, Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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