S. purpurea "tina"


maverick
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Hi All,

I was searching some online cp webshops, and after some searching I saw a plant for sale named S. purpurea 'tina'

It is for sale at karnivores.com, a french site , It is a very interesting plant in my meaning.

It looks like a x catesbaei with the colors of a flava var. rugelii.

They also say it is a new cultivar, but I've not seen some sort of publishing on this one.

I think it is a cross between a veinless purpurea ssp. venosa and a flava var. rugelii

I havn't heard of it before, It looks a lot like the very rare S. purpurea 'Sorrow' to me.

If someone knows something more, Thanks!

I would like to get some more information about this one.

All the Best,

Laurens

Edited by maverick
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I've done some more reasearch on it, I've emailed the shop and I ordered a plant.

As soon as I receive the plant I will post some pictures,

I indeed agree it looks very much like a S.x catesbaei with a throat patch, but so does the real S. purpurea ssp. purpurea 'Sorrow"

But compaire for yourself:

Sarracenia purpurea ssp. purpurea 'Sorrow': http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cpn/Speci..._89.html#sorrow

Sarracenia purpurea "Tina": http://www.karnivores.com/en/carnivorous-p...a-purpurea-tina

It looks exactly the same, exept for the throat patch, but the patch can become smaller when the plant is stressed.

I'm very interested in the outcome of this one...

Kind Regards,

Laurens

Edited by maverick
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Hi,

I have seen a picture of Sarracenia x "Tina" in "Gardening with Carnivores, Sarracenia pitcherplants in cultivation and in the wild, by Nick Romanowsky".

It is on page 46 with this information (with single quotes, but as far as I know it is not officially a cultivar):

Sarracenia x 'Tina', possibly an infraspecific hybrid between variants of S. purpurea which do not occur together in the wild, although it may also include some other genes.

I found this link on google:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=zoqDQJN8lm...ina&f=false

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"S. 'Tina' Here is the cultivar we selected for its beauty. Rare, it comes either from a crossing involving Sarracenia purpurea ssp. purpurea f. heterophylla (a form with no red pigments), or a variety which has not been officially described.

Just like Sarracenia flava var. rugelii, the leaves are light acid green - a rare characteristic among plants - with one or several red spots under the hood, making it strongly attractive to most flying insects. As any Sarracenia purpurea, it is a very cold-hardy carnivorous plant."

Hmm, there are several odd things in this advertisement... "Light acid green" being just like rugelii, really? "Strongly attractive to most flying insects", come on man... It reads like they are just making it up. And it has, apparently, already been named as 'Sorrow', so much for it not having been described.

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Hi Guys,

I have a small update, I got a reply from the seller and he told me the following:

" To what we heard about it, it could well be Sarracenia purpurea 'Sorrow', but we lack information about it. Therefore, we can't decide which name is more legitimate for now."

The plant he is selling comes from Triffid Park(Australia).

I also emailed them, but no reply yet...

They have on their website that the plant came "from Gent" http://triffidpark.com.au/htm_pages/collec...rous_plants.htm (Scroll a bit more then 1/2 down the page)

I hope they will respond, so I can figure this out.

I somebody knows more about it, all info would be apperciated.

Thanks!

Regards,

Laurens

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Hi Nicolas,

Very, very, interesting, as the throat patch looks differend again, this shows again that this can be differend,

Thanks for the picture,

I also got a reply from triffidpark, they say they obtained the plant from the Belgium cp society back in 1994,

Way before sorrow was registerd, and the cutivar description says that they obtained seeds from florida back in 1979, sow this indeed could very well be'Sorrow' but before the name changed to sorrow it was grown under the name of tina.

I'm now searching contact with Freddy de Coninck(Belgium CP society back in 1994) he also gave the plant to triffidpark.

I will keep you updated guys, thanks for the information a lot!

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Today I received my Sarracenia purpurea "Tina"

It looks very good in my opinion.

There is a lot of diversity even in the pitchers on the same plant. Look at the throat patch and the lid edge.

IMG_5987.jpg

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IMG_5994.jpg

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Unfortunately already in hybernation.

IMG_5996.jpg

I'm now awaiting my reply on an e-mail I've send to two members of the Drosera VZW Belgian society.

I also emailed Cz-plants becouse they maybe know Miloslav Studnicka(original grower of 'Sorrow') and can help me to get in touch with him.

If somebody else can help me with finding contact with him, please let me know.

Thanks!

Regards,

Laurens

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At the website they are already selling it as a 'Sorrow', but I don't have any evindence to prove it yet.

I'm sure this will be an email misunderstanding.

I wrote a letter to Freddy de Coninck and I'm now awaiting his reply.

I hope he can give me some information about it, other people of the Belgian cp society told me he was getting active again in the CP world, so I hope for the best.

Regards,

Laurens

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I've been following thes post with some interest.

Laurens - would you say this company is ok to buy from? They have some interesting plants.

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So Karnivores have suddenly decided to start selling this plant as sorrow now?!?! I hope they have some evidence that is really is the same plant otherwise its quite worrying and people will end up with wrongly named plants :oops:

Heather

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would you say this company is ok to buy from?
Yes it is. It's well known in France for several years now, and most people who have bought plants to them seem to have been satisfied.
So Karnivores have suddenly decided to start selling this plant as sorrow now?!?! I hope they have some evidence that is really is the same plant otherwise its quite worrying and people will end up with wrongly named plants :man_in_love:
I'm surprised too. I'll ask him directly. Edited by Nicolas de Lyon
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I've not given them any evindence to prove it really is 'Sorrow', So now they may indeed be selling it under the wrong name.

I've only told them I personally was convinced it was the same plant, based on the look of it.

But even I will wait to put 'Sorrow' on my growlist until I have any evidence for it.

I'm still awaiting my reply from Freddy de Coninck to help me further with this.

I will keep you updated.

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Vincent asked me to write my opinion here...

Well... S. 'Tina' was published in Nick Romanowski's book "Growing with Carnivores" (2002, ISBN: 0-8130-2509-5). If I saw it I was sure that is the same genotype as S. 'Sorrow'.

Sarracenia 'Sorrow' was selected by Dr. Studnicka from batch of S. purpurea ssp. purpurea seeds which he obtained in 1980's (!) from Ghent, Belgium (!!!). I got a specimen as a present 11 years ago from Dr. Studnicka and I am pretty sure it is some bacross of S. purpurea snd S. f. rugelii. According to my knowledge and experience with Sarracenia genetics such hybrid can be obtained in 3rd or 4th generation of crossing. Anyway i am sure it is not a form or mutant of S. purpurea.

According to Romanowski's photo I would say it is the same, but as I see the photos here and on the supplier's net I can see differences. Sorrow is more close to purpura in it's shape, the rosete is more compact and pitchers are shorter. Tina has pitchers more elongate, the rosette is more extensed and lid of the pitcher is relatively small. The lid is also a little bit undulated in Tina, which I have never seen in Sorrow.

Anyway it would be interesting to track the origin of Tina. I would be very curious. I would estimate, the origin is the same.

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Many thanks Mirek for your answer!!! One day we'll finally discover the truth! :yes:

I thinks it's quiet hard to see by some pics if we're talking about the same plants. Although I agree with your points!

That's also the reason why I'll take some pics tomorrow of the plants (S.'Tina') which I ordered from Karnivores.

Of course it's up to Freddy de Coninck now to confirm our suspects... :lol: I don't think there are any of these Sarracenia's left in

our collection in Ghent, maybe Freddy has some plants left? Unfortunately I don't know him personal...

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I will check my mailbox every hour, hoping to find a letter fro Freddy, I really hope he can confirm this.

But as Tina is officialy published, it now is a real cultivar?

I think if Freddy doesn't send me a reply the trace will end dead...

Does anybody know anything about dna comparising?

Because I really want to solve this if there is no other option, since I don't want to find out all my efford resulted in nothing.

Thanks!

Edited by maverick
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...and here my child, just arrived from Karnivores.

The day after my lucky deal, they renamed it from "Tina" to "Sorrow" and pulled up the price from 15 to 25 euros...

Who really knows the truth? I think I'll continue naming it S. x "Tina" at the moment and make my part in avoiding future confusion between (may be) two different clones...

Thanks for the accurate explaining Miroslav.

s_x_tina_0001.jpg

s_x_tina_0002.jpg

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Sorrow is more close to purpura in it's shape, the rosete is more compact and pitchers are shorter. Tina has pitchers more elongate, the rosette is more extensed and lid of the pitcher is relatively small. The lid is also a little bit undulated in Tina, which I have never seen in Sorrow.

I recieved my "Tina" from Triffid Park last week, and I'd have to say it is very purpurea-like, not at all like a catesbaei as some people have said. The lid is also very normal for a purpurea. I don't think the photos of "Tina" show it very accurately, and mine is more similar to the photos of 'Sorrow' that I've seen.

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The fact is:

1) I think our S. "Tina" plants are coming from the respective sellers very recently - except for the few growing since at least one year - and are still starting acclimatation, adaptations and so on. Stabilization of the treats takes time and we have to see the shape/colour in the next season, without recent root disturbance.

2) Purpurea is a greatly changing species, depending on compost, light, climatic conditions, ph, amount of prey catched, photoperiod...

3) We can post hundreds of shots of our "Tina" since we all have one, but very few pictures of 'Sorrow' are available for an effective comparision.

We'll see...

Edited by (Maniac)
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