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Ian Salter

S. leucophylla x ghost is annoying me

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I'm sure I'm not on my own being confused and annoyed at the different descriptions attached to the lovely S. leucophylla white top, Baldwin Co. AL, WS(MS) (Mike King's Ref. L50).

Firstly, information for this plant is at best sketchy, the best info I have is that it Mathew Soper (MS-SL007)produced this fine plant from wild collected seed and no official naming has taken place, The plant may also not be a pure S. leucophylla.

Secondly and most annoyingly I have seen this plant Going by other discriptions such as S. leucophylla x ghost / S. leucophylla "Ghost" / S. leucophylla, Ben's bog, Baldwins Co. AL. (Is it Ben's Bog ?)

If anyone has any facts about this plant then please add it to this thread, Have emailed Mathew Soper some time back but can only assume he is very busy. At the very least someone should give an official name to this plant so we can confirm they are all indeed the same.

Cheers all.

Ian.

Edited by Ian Salter

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Tank you for starting this topic Ian..

I'm assuming that the "uncertainty" is indeed bugging..

To further explain things for other readers, i won this plant two weeks ago (auction 333)..and got in touch with Ian (the donator), because it was not present on his growlist..

In some informative back and forwarding mails, the above stated info was given to me...but i felt it to be short and rather unsatisfying...

I requested Ian to keep trying to reach Mathew, because i'm very interested in the story about this plant and it's background..

At some point, even the word 'Carniflora' came to mention..something that made my skin crawl instantly..because the auction was for a S. Leucophylla, Baldwin co. AL. (MK L50)

Fitting a pure species of Sarracenia (let alone with location data) and the word "Carniflora" into one sentence is impossible..if not simply ridiculous..

As Ian mentions, Mathew has not replyed up to now..i really hope he will in the end.

A personal tought i had about this is as follows..

Ian, why did you donate this "Uncertain" plant as being a pure leucophylla, carrying a number of the most respected grower of these plants on the face of the earth? (please, don't do this again okay?..it only add's to the confusion..which is huge enough as it is!)

If it's not 100% sure the same clone, then don't give it the number!, instead, bin it, composte it, label it sufficiently/accordingly or stick it in a outdoor bog..

At present, i'm okay with thing's and with Ian..mistake's happen..and perhaps the mistake lies with Mathew even, i hope he can explain thins one day..but i really was irritated at Ian in the beginning (just being honest here)

I feel very strongly for keeping the administrations accurate and flawless..and can get rather crancky when people go naming and numbering randomly..or, as Stephen mentions, all kind's of weird named plant's pop up everywhere..these willingly damaging, and apparently stupid people should be shot on sight!

Anyway,

The plant is standing amidst the other Leuco's now, and is labeled L50...BUT, if the details about this specific clone do not become clear anytime soon, the label will be removed, as will the plant from the collection.

I (or all of us?) cannot take any chances...the proper labeling and naming is invaluable for future purposes, and should be respected!

Danny...

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S. leucophylla "Ghost" seems to be a tissue cultured leuco that has only appeared in the last 12 months or so. I've seen a batch of them at a garden centre - they are attractive plants with very white tops.

I don't know if its Cresco, Carniflora or someone else.

Maybe a photo would be useful?

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I'm probably out of my league, here, but would it look like this, that I received as S. 'Schnell's Ghost'?

Picture003-11.jpg

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i feel the confusion may result from people renaming unregistered plants that are already in circulation with a nickname, personally its a beautifull plant wherever it comes from and a beautifull plant is more important to me than any location label (baldwin Co is a big place i'm sure theres more than one leuco grows there!) the Xghost name seems to be connected with frank (the character) at euroflora!

i obtained this plant off mathew about 5 years back ian and he told me he'd selected it from seed he'd collected himself when he and alistair and ?? visited the states.

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In my defence I have copied and pasted my first response to Danny,

but first let me say that plenty of reputable people have personally seen my clones and no doubt has ever come to light, I have even had some of these plants to give to several well established growers and members on this forum at Mike King's open day this year (Your input would be very appreciated guys).

Correspondence .........

"Danny"

Hello Ian,

I was just wondering...you donated Mike's L50 for auction (which i won..yeey!), but it's not present on your growlist?

Am i missing something here?..a established plant..and your list edited only 14 day's ago..that doesn't fit..

Please let me know okay?..i don't want to loose sleep over nothing!

Kind Regards,

Danny...

My reply....

Hi Danny and well done on winning the auction.

Ok, Here is the facts.

Originally obtained a batch of this clone from PJ Plants a few years ago and information back then was at best sketchy and it was labelled as a Bay Co. plant and there was some mention of Carniflora.

Of late the best information I have is that Mathew Soper of Hampshire Carnivorous plants got Carniflora to do a limited tissue culture run for this plant.

On talking to Mike king (who lists his as White top, Baldwin Co. L50) I was informed about the original grower and its more likely location Baldwin Co.

I have not listed this plant as I'm still trying to get hard facts about this clone but several people are growing it now as a White top leucophylla so I may do the same.

I told Andy Collins that this was the same clone as Mike king's L50 so Andy thought he would state it as if I got it from him.

########non relevant text##############.

I must email Mathew Soper and get the full facts as I have recently seen this plant banded about as Sarracenia x Ghost (It seems an unofficial name) by Euroflora I think (And I'm sure it is the same clone but may be wrong).

So in short I don't like to list things in my grow list if I'm not 100% of the facts.

If this confuses you then you are in the same boat as me.

If I can clarify anything for you then please don't hesitate to get in touch.

Kindest regards.

Ian.

To keep this accurate I had to leave all relevant text in so sincerest apologies if I cause any named parties any form of embarrassment

Edited by Ian Salter

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Hi all,

The plant is not a 'pure' leucophylla as it has yellow flowers, never really attains the full height of any of the other leucos and judging it location (it was labelled in Matthew Soper's greenhouse as "Baldwin County") when I bought it at a visit to him several years ago could involve alata and rubra wherryi in the mix as well!

Now it seems to be given the name 'Ghost', this will seem to add to the confusion as 'Schnell's Ghost' now applies to ANY yellow flowered leucophylla and not to a specific clone. This is unfortuante as several of the yellow flowered clones of leucophylla are clearly hybrids (albeit very distant in one or 2 cases) with S.alata.

I am sure this will be quite a topic!

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Out of all the clones of Sarracenia 'species', it seems to me that the most dubious are labelled S. leucophylla.

Agreed!

Another fine example..L9...a plant that half the world still kills for...with the exeption of not having any location attached.

Anyway,

It is NOT my intention to harm anyone, or put them in a bad picture...

And if it´s up to me, this topic does not have to get a mile long...if it gets clear..that´ll do it for me.

The plant is indeed very nice..no doubts there..and I´ve come to accepting it as being a nice plant for a while now..

It´s just that so many growers are trying to keep a good and accurate administration..in fact, we encourage any new members here in holland very strongly to do so too!

Almost everyone here, or at least the majority (including myself!), has been `Raised` in the same manner, as the CPS and CPUK stand for proper nomenclature, and the majority (if not all) of the respected and reputed 'heavyweights' have been informing countless new enthusiasts of the importance for many years, and many more to come i'm sure.

Then a plant come's up for auction..very nice, and with location data..that eventually turns out to be a mystery..or at least a uncertainty...

That felt ehhhhh..."weird"...to me..

If anyone at this moment is asking him or her self.."How on earth can we 100% prevent this from happening?..it's sheer impossible!!"..then you are right..

But if administrations are kept accurately, by law stupid people are not allowed to grow plants and doddgy eastern european nurseries are ignored..that would be a real good start if you ask me.

In the end, i just want to know what plant i'm growing...and ask anyone out there not to go naming and numbering about.

Danny...

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I have no reasonable doubt of what my plants are, just the actual details of the plants background and the facts about it.

I never set out to state I had this plant off Mike king but that's how it came out, I've had no reason to beleive that this is not the same clone as MK-L50 (sorry to drop your name Mike).

I would not intentionally find a plant that looks like something and use a reputable growers code to fake a validation.

At the time it was merely a referance (see previous post), I could have used anyones listing code but at the end of the day it would have still been been the same plant.

Now one of two things will happen.

Either all the people who know me and have had these plants off me tell me the plant is not the same clone as Mathew soper's.

or someone will stand up and say it is the same clone and validate me.

It's ironic that a thread I started with the intention of getting accurate details about this plant has turned into my small reputation being slated in public regarding accuracy, If I sell plants I sell them reasonably, If I give plants I give freely, If a label fades it's unlabelled for life.

Doing my best.

Ian.

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Ian,

I thought Mike King had already said that the plants were the same?

..and dunk had stated he had,had a plant via Matthew Soper, which was the same plant?

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It's ironic that a thread I started with the intention of getting accurate details about this plant has turned into my small reputation being slated in public regarding accuracy

The most important thing is..you where honest!..this still counts for something you know..it does with me!

People who know you well, or are of good expertise, will look further then the surface...and ultimately, the "slatedness" of your reputation will be minimal..

I think it will be admired to be this honest, and try to get the bottom rock on top regarding this plant and it's story..

Doing my best

No one states differently Ian..and my guess, no one ever will!

Danny...

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Thanks Davy.

Let's not let this thread get out of hand everyone.

The point of this thread was to get details for this plant.

We may have all we were going to get and that's fine as long as it keeps to that name.

Time out.

Ian.

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Danny, I share your frustration about incorrect plant naming but I suspect that if we delve deep enough into the origins of a lot of the 'species' in our collections, then there are a number of uncertainties. Taking seed from wild Sarracenia must be full of uncertainty.

For example, even if a colony of plants all 'look' like S. leucophylla, who can say that there are no other genes present from introgression that happened hundreds of years before (e.g. from another species that has died out nearby)? It is impossible to tell for sure. I'm not sure that even genetic analysis will be able to tell us that much unless we have a definitive genome for each species.

And Ian, your reputation is untainted in my book. It's no biggie.

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This is my Sarracenia x ghost, from Euroflora.

As well as 'Baldwin Co.' I've also seen this plant given a 'Bay Co.' location..........just to add more confusion into the mix.

spooky.jpg

Edited by Phantom

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I think the Bay Co location came from when P J plants sold it a few years ago.

ada

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I have this plant. I bought it from Euroflora as S. x ghost.

On buying the plant I was told that it was originally from Bay County FL. That's how I've got it labelled in my greenhouse and growlist. I've even sold a couple on ebay labelled as such. I have no reason to doubt the source of the information.

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Can we all at least first confirm or agree these are all of the same clone or not??

I think this is a vital factor.

Description of plant and flower description would be appreciated along with more pictures.

Thanks for the input so far.

Edited by Ian Salter

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Guest ralf

There are some kind of white topped leucophyllas avaiable which seem to be all the same plant but having different location details. Recently there have been sold some of this white topped plants in larger quantities on ebay.co.uk

I would like to share some pictures of my white topped plants which might have the same origin. But I have problems with uploading them to this forum. Therefore I published them on the German forum (www.carnivoren.org).

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Hi everyone,

I dusted off this old post to try to clarify.

S. leucophylla "Ghost" seems to be a tissue cultured leuco that has only appeared in the last 12 months or so. I've seen a batch of them at a garden centre - they are attractive plants with very white tops.

I don't know if its Cresco, Carniflora or someone else.

Maybe a photo would be useful?

Could this be the plant in question?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Carnivorous-Sarracen...=item2c5325f111

Cheers

Natale.

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Best solution i can see is to observe who the plant originaly came from.Always obtain from a reputable dealer who can tell you where they aquired the plant.Even if its someone you dont know ask where they got it so you can follow the family tree back to its original owner.Otherwise your taking a chance and may just be getting a lookalike.

Once the history of the plant is lost it could be anything.

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A little UPDATE for an interesting thread!!

I've got both of them, but still too little to try to make reasonings or comments on their appearance.

Does anyone of you succeded in going back to the original owner?

If the original owner is "lost" or not known anyhow, what do you think about trying to compare all our (your) ADULT plants (maybe flowers too), and see what happen? Otherwise (as seen, last post is getting very old) we wont be able to find an end to this story..

Kind regards

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