ada Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 WHY NOT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) ............. I can't just go to a supplier and ask for a "typical" Cephalotus............ Oh yes you can. Edited November 19, 2015 by FredG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimitar Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Can someone give me an exact name so that I can look it up and see an actual picture? Cephalotus "Double Ribbed" - the most famous plant in USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Behave Dimi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwharold Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Cephalotus "Double Ribbed" - the most famous plant in USA Now we are getting somewhere. I searched for pictures and it is absolutely spectacular! Now I just have to find a seller in the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Good grief! Don't you read what's said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimitar Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Now I just have to find a seller in the USA. Big Bella is your guy Just ask around and all fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) Will someone put superglue on Dimi's keyboard...... please! Edited November 19, 2015 by FredG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwharold Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Good grief! Don't you read what's said? I have absolutely no idea what you are even talking about!!!!! All I was looking for was a real specific variety NAME that I could look up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwharold Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Good grief! Don't you read what's said? I have absolutely no idea what you are even talking about!!!!! All I was looking for was a real specific variety NAME that I could look up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 I have absolutely no idea what you are even talking about!!!!! All I was looking for was a real specific variety NAME that I could look up The name is Cephalotus follicularis. Now let me explain that in terms you may comprehend. IF YOU REMOVE THE LABELS FROM THE POTS YOU CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE IN PHOTOGRAPHS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ada Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 put the labels back in and the price goes up and up and up. Do you get it now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus B Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) I have absolutely no idea what you are even talking about!!!!! All I was looking for was a real specific variety NAME that I could look up. Cephs can seem quite variable, so when you are picking plants you may find yourself choosing between plants that show different characteristics and pick one that you like best. The problem with that is, that plants that can be cuttings from the same parent plant, can show different characteristics, when they are genetically all the same. Worst still, you take your prize home and expect it to continue to show that preferred characteristic, such as dark colour, and the new pitchers don't do so. Cephs will grow differently under different conditions, and it can be small things that make the difference, even if left in the one spot they can vary from year to year. For this reason there is a lot of contention about naming varieties of Cephs, because many of them mean very little other than helping to trace where the plant came from, but even that has become an issue in itself. Some plants that have been named for their previous supplier, by those who sell them on, get treated as though they are something special when they are just named as a way of distinguishing different stock, and this has given rise to people wanting a particular named plant while not realising it is not that different to any other commonly available Ceph. This chasing of names has artificially inflated the selling price of many plants which are not worthy of the increased cost. We could put up photos different plants that will look similar even if grown under different conditions, or photos of the same plant under different conditions that may, or may not, show differences, as well as photos of the same plant, under the same basic conditions that show different characteristics one year from the next. Basically what we are saying is, don't look for a variety name, as it is no guarantee that you will get a plant that will display the characteristic that you are looking for, but rather it is more likely that you will pay more than you ought. Cephs can be difficult to get growing well, so you are better off getting a Typical/normal/standard Ceph (one without a variety name) and learning how to grow that well. If in future, you have had good success with Cephs, then it may be worth looking at getting a named plant, for the purpose of trying to increase the genetic variety in your collection, which is most useful if you want to produce your own seed. A simpler way is to buy plants grown from seed, especially if from different growers, as then you will have your own genetically unique plants (even if the genetic difference is minor). The issue of how much real genetic variation there is in Cephs and whether it actually has much impact in the appearance of the plant is a much debated issue and that is what you have walked into. This is why the responses seem confusing so please don't take it personally. Fred (I think) is just trying to save you money and protect you from disappointment of buying a plant based on an appearance that it may not display under your conditions. Hopefully that helps to clear things up for you. BTW, In case it is not obvious, Dimitar was trying to be funny in referring you to a contentious "variety". Edited November 19, 2015 by Marcus B 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwharold Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Thanks a lot Marcus. This does help to clarify the situation. However, I don't appreciate being treated like an idiot by others. I did some research. I found a reputable CP (+Cephalotus follicularis) supplier: http://www.carnivorousplantnursery.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl?SID=1445218293.20336&page=category.html&category=13. I spoke with Michael, the owner, and he treated me with respect, and suggested that I visit his greenhouse to pick out the one that I like best. I intend to do so within the coming week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus B Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Thanks a lot Marcus. This does help to clarify the situation. However, I don't appreciate being treated like an idiot by others. I did some research. I found a reputable CP (+Cephalotus follicularis) supplier: http://www.carnivorousplantnursery.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl?SID=1445218293.20336&page=category.html&category=13. I spoke with Michael, the owner, and he treated me with respect, and suggested that I visit his greenhouse to pick out the one that I like best. I intend to do so within the coming week. What is coming out in the comments appears to be the frustration that this issue has come up again and looks like it won't go away. Many people who are new to growing Cephs get drawn to the idea that if they pay a lot of money for a plant with a name then they will have something special and then they get disappointed. Giants such as the ones listed on Michael's site have a tendency to produce large than "typical" sized pitchers more readily than "Typical" Cephs. However, given the right conditions, "Typical" plants can also produce large pitchers, hence the argument about whether such a distinction is valid. From my own experience, such a distinction does have merit, but it seems that too many plants have been sold as being something that they are not and so confusion reigns. There are lot of other variations that get named which appear to be products of a particular grower's set up and therefore not something that is genetic. It is this combination of debatable issues, and the fact that some people seem to take advantage of it, which is what many get worked up about. It gets too easy to forget how confusing this can be to those who just want to start growing something a bit unusual. Have fun picking out your new plant, but just be prepared for it to do things you don't expect, including dying back for awhile, but give it time to settle in and in a few years you may have a plant that you are proud to show off. If Michael grows them himself rather than just on selling plants, then talk to him about the conditions he keeps them in and get his suggestions for how to accommodate the plant in your set up, but be ready to enjoy your Ceph even if it does not do what you hope for. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwharold Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 What is coming out in the comments appears to be the frustration that this issue has come up again and looks like it won't go away. Many people who are new to growing Cephs get drawn to the idea that if they pay a lot of money for a plant with a name then they will have something special and then they get disappointed. Giants such as the ones listed on Michael's site have a tendency to produce large than "typical" sized pitchers more readily than "Typical" Cephs. However, given the right conditions, "Typical" plants can also produce large pitchers, hence the argument about whether such a distinction is valid. From my own experience, such a distinction does have merit, but it seems that too many plants have been sold as being something that they are not and so confusion reigns. There are lot of other variations that get named which appear to be products of a particular grower's set up and therefore not something that is genetic. It is this combination of debatable issues, and the fact that some people seem to take advantage of it, which is what many get worked up about. It gets too easy to forget how confusing this can be to those who just want to start growing something a bit unusual. Have fun picking out your new plant, but just be prepared for it to do things you don't expect, including dying back for awhile, but give it time to settle in and in a few years you may have a plant that you are proud to show off. If Michael grows them himself rather than just on selling plants, then talk to him about the conditions he keeps them in and get his suggestions for how to accommodate the plant in your set up, but be ready to enjoy your Ceph even if it does not do what you hope for. Thanks a lot Marcus. I deeply appreciate your detailed intelligent responses (unlike some others). They are most helpful. I intend to make my purchase on December 3rd. I will post a picture of what I have selected. Best regards, Richard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Thanks a lot Marcus. This does help to clarify the situation. However, I don't appreciate being treated like an idiot by others. I did some research. I found a reputable CP (+Cephalotus follicularis) supplier: http://www.carnivorousplantnursery.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl?SID=1445218293.20336&page=category.html&category=13. I spoke with Michael, the owner, and he treated me with respect, and suggested that I visit his greenhouse to pick out the one that I like best. I intend to do so within the coming week. I think that Marcus B has described the situation very well and is correct that the other members were trying to make you aware that a named clone might, or might not, display their claimed characteristics given certain conditions. There has been a lot of dicussion on this forum, one of the other popular CP forums and Facebook on the validity of certain Cephalotus clones and cultivars, for which I think it was determined that there is actually no requirement in the cultivar registration process for the claimed characteristics to be validated. WIthout this awareness, I can see that this discussion may have appeared to be slightly fragmented. I personally grow a number of named clones, cultivars, location names, and 'typical' Cephalotus which I was fortunate enough to have been given for free, or only pay a minimal amount for, and I have to say I like them all equally. Sure, some might have slighlty larger pitchers than others, but it does not make those others less desirable. Also, some clones and cultivar characteristics only appear in very specific growing conditions for which you may, or may not, be able to reproduce. For instance, the dark clones I have seen seem to have the ability to possibly get darker than their 'typical' counterparts in conditions that would get good colouration in the 'typical', but the conditions must be met. The largest pitcher I have ever seen was on a Cephalotus that was grown in a modified refrigerator, but not many growers are going to go to the lengths of reproducing such conditions. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus B Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Another aspect of this is that we hear from people chasing a "named clone" that is not a named plant at all, such as the "Phil Mann clone". This is a product of what I referred to earlier. Phil Mann sold a lot of plants that came from various parent plants. People, such as myself, on buying a plant from Phil labelled it with his name. If we put up a photo of it, it gets labelled as "Phil Mann". Someone sees that and asks to obtain the "Phil Mann clone". However, Phil sent out matterial from number of plants, not just one. I had three plants that I got from Phil. The cuttings are labelled so I know which plant they came from. My original plants may or may not have been from the one parent plant, but basically they are all just typical/standard/normal Cephs even though they showed variation. So we could supply the asker with a plant which could be traced back to Phil, but be from totally different stock to the one that they saw or read about. I also know of one plant that was broken up and distributed under the name of the grower who did very well with it. One recipent apparently had good success with the piece he had and it produced large pitchers, so he started to distrubute it as a giant tagged with part of the name of the former grower. Having an interest in the larger growing forms of Cephs I as looking it getting some only to find out that it was from the same stock that I already had. Its best pitcher size is somewhat smaller than my "Giant" at its best, but it often looked better at the time of our shows, so my "Giant" was runner up to this more colourful plant when they were together, before the grower stopped showing it. Text fails to carry people's tone and so their intent can be misunderstood. It is also easy to miss things and others can assume knowledge that is not there. Added to this when you repeatedly deal with the same issue it is easy to forget that this is all new to the person asking. I have had to learn that short answers, although they save time, can often fail to convey the necessary information need to establish good communication. At times I have given quick answers that on later reading I find actually convey something, or have a tone, that is unintended. Another forum that I am part of deals with freshwater turtles. They have a document that they refer newbies to when they have FAQs. May be we need to have something like that which includes this issue, rather than just a growing guide for Cepsh in the FAQs. That way we can just refer newbies to it to read before engagaing in further discussions. Just a thought. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimitar Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Another aspect of this is that we hear from people chasing a "named clone" that is not a named plant at all, such as the "Phil Mann clone". This is a product of what I referred to earlier. Phil Mann sold a lot of plants that came from various parent plants. People, such as myself, on buying a plant from Phil labelled it with his name. If we put up a photo of it, it gets labelled as "Phil Mann". Someone sees that and asks to obtain the "Phil Mann clone". However, Phil sent out matterial from number of plants, not just one. I had three plants that I got from Phil. The cuttings are labelled so I know which plant they came from. My original plants may or may not have been from the one parent plant, but basically they are all just typical/standard/normal Cephs even though they showed variation. So we could supply the asker with a plant which could be traced back to Phil, but be from totally different stock to the one that they saw or read about. So true! You have described this exactly as the truth is. Well done, Marcus. Phill Mann sent in the years tons unlabaled plants to Charles Brewer in the US as well. A lot of these plants passed into the growers under the name Cephalotus "Phill Man". The situation in Europe is not so different... It is the same with Cephalotus " Adrian Slack" clone. At least I know 12356787591 variations of this clone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) Labels, labels, the money is in the labels. Edited November 21, 2015 by FredG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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