Davy Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 After talking to the very pretty Auusie woman at Kew..(I believe She is known to many of you, has a little bit of status in the gardens), and her telling me that the RHS,( which has jurisdiction over all the big events, Chelsea for example), that plants grown in peat will not be allowed to enter in future events. What future does this hold for the Cp community? Will the plants we love become even more of a minority horticultral based group? Will the CPS be allowed to show next year, will other major growers who won medals this year be shunned next? I know there are alternatives. But: Moorland Gold..still peat based Coir...poor in all results ..this told me by staff at Kew So, we grow an endangered species of plant, but we cannot grow it , because the best medium to grow it in is endangered? I would love to pot up in moorland gold......................but I cannot afford to. Anybody who has the ear of the RHS..whisper quietly..that we are saving something . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loligo1964 Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) Canadian sources claim that sphagnum peat harvesting only represents some 0.02% of the available area's 270 million or so acres of marsh and bog -- primarily those in parts of New Brunswick and Quebec -- and that they are very strictly-regulated. Two-hundredths of one percent is a pretty ****ing small footprint from my perspective, out here in the former colonies. I have yet to discover anything with which to replace peat moss, and not for lack of trying (more out of sheer curiosity than out of some mawkish effort at environmentalism). Coir is a mediocre choice at the very best, and the death of plants from potential sodium contamination at the worst. Are there any notions floating around the UK just what nursery businesses are to use for their composts in the foreseeable future? I have also heard recently that harvesting in the UK is to be largely phased out by 2010-11? Can this be true? Edited July 31, 2009 by loligo1964 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 there was a bit on this on the telly, RHS were saying that specialist growers who had to use peat would still be allowed to display whether we will be able to buy it or not in future years is another matter.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Moorland Gold should be given special dispensation though I'd imagine, if the big wigs were educated about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyoliver Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Is Moorland Gold good then? I was reading Stephen's paper on the CPS site and thought I might give it a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loligo1964 Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Is Moorland Gold good then? I was reading Stephen's paper on the CPS site and thought I might give it a go. It should be OK, since it is basically derived peat particles, expensively "reclaimed" from rivers and streams; but God help you should there be some damn endangered larval thing that is ever caught up in the manufacturing process. You'd have the Nature Conservancy brown-shirts to pay . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyoliver Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Its not cheap! £11 - £14 for 45lts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 I pay £2.60 per bag from a local supplier. Add carriage to that it would be expensive. It works out cheap if you buy a pallet-full direct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyoliver Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 I pay £2.60 per bag from a local supplier. Add carriage to that it would be expensive.It works out cheap if you buy a pallet-full direct So buy in bulk then. How many lts do you get on a pallet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) So buy in bulk then. How many lts do you get on a pallet? Minimum 10/pallet. More details here: http://www.wrorganics.co.uk/compost.html Good stuff but I can't help thinking that it may be cheaper for you to find a local supplier of sphagnum moss peat or Moorland Gold, as the delivery price is going to be high for either Edited July 31, 2009 by mobile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 if you work out the price for 40 bags even with delivery it's (only) going to be £3.50-3.75 per bag. I'm tempted to order a pallet myself and sell the surplus at cost.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy Posted August 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Stephen, £150 + for a pallet? I am glad you have the money and the space.. Sell off the extra, that you buy at cost, will still be to much for the majority. I think many small growers will be suriving in the years to come, I think the majors growers will be able to continue through sales of plants...........growers like myself , who grow purely as a hobby have the option.. I will have to downsize, when peat becomes non available. But which plants should I put to one side? The oreophilia's?, psittacina's ?.....the seed grown plants, the new hybrids which are in the making? A question which the answer I will find out in a year or so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Presently peat is still available so if you are concerned then buy a few bags. While Moorland Gold is expensive when you add postage, the actual price is probably comparable with getting sphagnum moss peat via mail order. We should also consider/experiment with alternatives. There was an interesting article in the CPS journal a few issues back on growing CP plants in hydroponics. I too have tried this and currently have a VFT growing in rockwool DWC hydroponics. Also consider experimenting with reducing the quantity of peat used by adding more 'fillers' such as perlite, or maybe rockwool cubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manders Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Presently peat is still available so if you are concerned then buy a few bags. While Moorland Gold is expensive when you add postage, the actual price is probably comparable with getting sphagnum moss peat via mail order. We should also consider/experiment with alternatives. There was an interesting article in the CPS journal a few issues back on growing CP plants in hydroponics. I too have tried this and currently have a VFT growing in rockwool DWC hydroponics. Also consider experimenting with reducing the quantity of peat used by adding more 'fillers' such as perlite, or maybe rockwool cubes. Lots of perlite works really well for many nepenthes, I grow several and have flowered and had seeds from plants in 100% perlite. I recently watched a program about a Disa orchid nursery which could only use Peat, nothing else worked, so there are other specialist growers with major problems also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyoliver Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 I cannot see peat ever going 100%. I don't think anyone has the right to say that, even if they think they do! Moorland Gold is very over priced and that is why its not that easy to get hold of leading to mail order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) I cannot see peat ever going 100%. I don't think anyone has the right to say that, even if they think they do! Moorland Gold is very over priced and that is why its not that easy to get hold of leading to mail order. I don't think it will disappear either but I can see the day that the eurocrats ban the extraction of it within Europe. If this ever happens then the only other alternative will to import it which will inevitable increase the cost beyond that of Moorland Gold. Also bear in mind that sphagnum moss peat is being used less and less and being stocked by fewer garden centres so this will make the extraction of it less favourable for companies and will hike the price up - basic economy of scale stuff. Edited August 4, 2009 by mobile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diva Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 a disa nursery i used has already stated that if the peat ban gows ahead he's selling the collection. all the fillers like perlite and rockwool do no envioromental damage?? i'm no expert but i'd be intrested to see how much energy is used to produce a bag of perlite as i'm sure its not heated up using solar power! i think the issue is responsible usage, most multi purpose composts are (still) peat based so the company's producing this then have to add the nutrients etc and i would guess that the majority of MP composts are used for short term planting that would be alot better served by using bark/leaf based compost or even the stuff that councils are producing from domestic waste and selling at stupid prices per ton to farmers, if you took MP usage out of the equation the damage caused by horticultural use would be more sustainable (yes i know technically no peat usage is sustainable but you know what i mean). but once again its us the little man that pays the price while big buisness carry's on regardless, i don't have the figures at hand but have you seen how many thousands of tons of peat are burned each year in powerstations in ireland, i don't have a mike king sized collection but i bet one train load could keep every cp grower in the UK supplied for the next decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 ... all the fillers like perlite and rockwool do no envioromental damage?? i'm no expert but i'd be intrested to see how much energy is used to produce a bag of perlite as i'm sure its not heated up using solar power! Rockwool is make by melting rock to temperatures of 1500°C+, so the energy required is quite large. Having said the, the rockwool used in horticulture is minimal compared to that used in industry and construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diva Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Rockwool is make by melting rock to temperatures of 1500°C+, so the energy required is quite large. Having said the, the rockwool used in horticulture is minimal compared to that used in industry and construction. sorry i hope you didn't feel i was singiling your comment out, i was just making that exact point that there's an envioromental consequence to everything we do and use, would the CO2 produced by the mining, transporting and production of perlite and rockwool make them any less damaging to use than peat? that opens the debate about peat bog habitat destruction but i'm sure theres a forum somewhere where people are discussing the damage caused to other flora and fauna by the mining of the rock used in perlite and rockwool production! dammed if ya do dammed if ya don't!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 sorry i hope you didn't feel i was singiling your comment out Not at all. ... i was just making that exact point that there's an envioromental consequence to everything we do and use, would the CO2 produced by the mining, transporting and production of perlite and rockwool make them any less damaging to use than peat? that opens the debate about peat bog habitat destruction but i'm sure theres a forum somewhere where people are discussing the damage caused to other flora and fauna by the mining of the rock used in perlite and rockwool production! dammed if ya do dammed if ya don't!! Lets not forget that peat bogs are massive carbon stores, destroying them releases the carbons back into the atmosphere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Sell off the extra, that you buy at cost, will still be to much for the majority. I don't think less than £3.75/bag is expensive, cheaper than multipurpose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyoliver Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) I don't think less than £3.75/bag is expensive, cheaper than multipurpose With shipping added on and if you compare to 100ltr or 200ltr of Peat, which I can drive just down the road to collect, it might seem a bit much. I don't know how much overall you would sell it for with shipping so I'm just guessing. Edited August 4, 2009 by andyoliver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 sure, but that's just because not many stock it, because of low demand, because of (overly) cheap peat that we have got used to. How much do you think postage on a 200l bale of peat will be? Peat is going to become very expensive and very hard to get in future, I've been saying this for decades as working in the conservation field I've seen it coming. That's why I've been researching different composts over the years. That's why I have not bought peat for 15 years. the CPS and other societes should be funding (research into alternatives). They should also be lobbying for access to peat for specialist growers if we want our hobby to survive. With oil supplies having peaked though, no matter how cheap the compost is, you won't be able to afford to pick it up in your car or have it delivered in future. the world is changing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manders Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 With oil supplies having peaked though, no matter how cheap the compost is, you won't be able to afford to pick it up in your car or have it delivered in future.the world is changing... Now there is a cheery thought I do agree oil has probably peaked out, the arabs have probably overstated how much oil they actually have in reserve and the oil based economies are in deep dog doo in the very near future. On the plus side though is that we have lots of coal and it can be converted to oil, so no need to scrap your cars just yet. I do think cheap travel is on the way out though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 It's debatable as to whether oils supplies have peaked but that's another discussion. The fact is that peat will, and already is, becoming harder to source so the price is bound to rise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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