dudo klasovity Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I grow my plants in terrarium but this contribution to the forum is not as much about terraria as it is about artificial feeding of CPs so if needed please move it to more apropriate department. Some time ago I have been thinking about how to keep the plants vividly growing even when the conditions arent very favorable (e.g. winter) when there is not enough prey/insects. It is well understood that CP are green plants capable of photosyntesis and that supplementation of N P and other lacking elements via digestion of prey is not necessary requirement for their survival. Of course a nourished plant grows and propagates better than struggling one. The importance of feeding the plants varies from one species to another and is maybe the most obvious in the case of tuberous droserae when they need (in very short time) grow rapidly bloom and create seeds or extra tubers. Without enough prey some of them only form a terrestrial rosette and then go back to dormancy without flowering and further propagation. All of the CPs are onlu capable of digestion of very simple molecules. So the prey body's components have to be broken down to its primary structures (aminoacids glycides fatty acids phosphosacharides etc). Depending on the CP genus not all of the components can be used for nourishing the plant. Enzymes available are the crucial determinating point. Well I designed an experiment to perform and determine whether there is a way to nourish the plants artificially to boost their growth and sustain wellness. As we know the anorganic fertilizers work mostly on the principle of addition of nitrogen in ammonium or nitrate form (or both in case of ammonium nitrate) phosphorus in form of sec. and tert. fosfates....potassium as KNO3 or KCl..and so on....in other words in a form unacceptable for most of CPs. Organic fertilizers are mostly urea guanidine calcium cyanamide (nitrolime) or other compounds with little tollerance of Cp to such fertilization. So i decided to try a different kind of food supplement for CPs...the very same that is used for animals. I took a powder mix of some aminoacids (lysine proline glutamic acid valine isoleucine serine tyrozine etc) fatty acids (stearic lignoceric acids and myristic acid) glycosides glycides and coenzymes and minerals such as Mg and vanadyl sulphate..) This i prepared dilute solution from and fed it to the plant once a week for two months. I only used Heliamphora and Nepenthes for this first experiment. In case of Heliamphora (minor) I had two plants coming from a cluster division of one plant...therefore genetically identical and they were grown together under the same conditions except one was fed the solution and the other was just as a referrence plant. The pictures show that both plants grew the same amount of new pitchers and that the frequency of growth did not increase but the growth of each new pitcher of fed plant was more rapid and the traps distingtively better developed: In case of Nepenthes i used common cheap hybrid x Ventrata. The young plant was fed for one month the very same nutrients. The next pitches was much bigger then the previous created by plant and actually bigger than tha plant itself: It would be nice to see whether this works with slow-growing nepenthes and other carnivorous genus. I havent tried this with pinguicular nor sarracenias (dormancy). But i have tried with droseras. The food was fed in solid/powder form directly onto the leaf. (D. capensis D.slackii D peltata) but before the food could be digested the affected leaf was a subject to rot/mould attack. This I think happens because droserae genus dont possess glycosidases-enzymes making the digestion of sugars possible. Since there were sugars present they remained undigested and therefore an inducement for fungus growth. I think with the proper analysis of enzymes in plants it is possible to design a harmless fertilizer to be mixed to meet each plant`s requirements:-) Sorry for the long lecture I just wanted to share my results and thought it might be of interest to some. Also I would like to ask you whether anyone had tried this before i did and what was the outcome of the experiment:-) P.S. Apologies for my English for it is not mu native tongue.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Well it certainly looks like one heli had grown much more than the other - though it may have been better to grow them in the same substrate for your experiments - personally I find my heli's grow better in pure sphagnum than in peat mixes anyway...... Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudo klasovity Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Hi Heather! They are in the very same substrate.....pure peat. The spaghnum on the left is just a topping. The other one had that too but i removed it before taking that picture so you can see the smaller one in its full size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveC Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 A very interesting post, thanks Dudo! I'll eagerly await further findings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amori Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 You know, it was just today (well, yesterday now) that I popped into the local health food shop to grab a protein bar when I had a gander at the amino acid supplements they had on display and thought to myself, "Will these work on my plants?" You certainly seem to have demonstrated it here. Thanks for sharing! Amori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faunista Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 A great contribution to the forum, thank you for sharing your knowledge! I'm also trying some aminoacidic fertilization on some species, but for a too short time to have still any conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Very interesting Dudo! I'd like to try to replicate this with my plants when I've the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markd226 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Thanks for the post, I am already thinking of how big my helis and neps might get Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Dudo, Interesting experiment. You say that you made a dilute mix, could you have not simply added the powder to the pitchers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudo klasovity Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Mobile: I suppose i could have used powder form but I didnt want to. Neps and sundews cannot digest poly and oligosugars because there are no glycosidases enzymes to break them down. See my mix contains a lot of sugar so I feared when using a concentrated form I would kill the pitcher (or the plant) by creating perfect media for fungus attack. The exactly same hapenned with sundews. So i tried a solution instead. Maybe if the pitcher has plenty of concentrated juices inside a bit of powder would work just as well. Dont think the amount of water in the pitcher makes a big difference but i might be wrong. Or if I used pure aminoacid mix there would be no problem for use on drosera as well:-)This area need far more extensive research than this:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Dudo, Was it a protein shake that you used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennisB Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Really interesting post! When are you going to put your mix on the market? Thanks Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudo klasovity Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Well for this pilot experiment I used a protein shake readily available in any gym/wellness centre. I have been using some myself for sports activities but then I read the composition label and noticed some of the components match the substances that are digested by CP's enzymes (as they are by animals). So let me point out that it is not MY mix nor is patented by me in any way. The protein shake (which in fact is not a protein shake but a blend of over 80 chemical compounds and majority is not a protein compound). Needless to say this mix is not perfect because there are so many ballast chem. substances that may or may not harm the complexity of digestion mechanism and consecutive process (pH as most important factor). It has been proven that major compound in this mix (sacharides) is of no use (nepenthes) and even harmful(drosera) for the plants. There is a need for significant improvement of such blends.For me this was just to make sure that this really works and I think that with some reservation it might be said that in some cases it really does....Luckily I have some gadgets like HPLC available to carry on to this research and find out the enzymatic nature of each genus and therefore to design an organic fertilizer for each particular CP genus. It is more than clear that this is a long run experiment and the verification of its outcome is time consuming (thankfully not very expensive). When the effects of particular mixes are shown then mixes of chemicals will be made and later put on market. Unfortunatelly at this time i am consumed by work on finalizing my PhD so the CPs must wait...for now....If anyone has some time on his/her hands I would be more than happy to cooperate:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Green Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Yep, a very interesting thread thanks. There seem to be several people currently experimenting with different aspects of growing - fertilising, composts, Effective Microbes, we should all have some monster plants in a few years. Do keep us updated with future results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimscott Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Thanks for sharing your experiment with us. *Better living through Chemistry* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Dudo, What dilution rates did you try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudo klasovity Posted January 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 so far I used 20% per weight but will try more concentrated solutions or even a powder form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudo klasovity Posted February 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 UPDATE: I have been feeding this heliamphora minor my mix of 18 L-aminoacids (1gram pre week). In 2 weeks it grew 5 more pitchers: The biggest pitcher is over 10cm now and still growing P.S. I switched to pure aminoacids mixture from regular protein mix because i had problems with undigested components of regular mix that caused fungi attack sometimes. Using pure aminoacids causes no such thing. The maximum dose is 5g per month (growth is boosted both qualitatively and quantitatively). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amori Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Dudo, that is fantastic. Would you mind enlightening us on what brand of AA mix you used for this experiment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I too would be interested in what brand of protein mix you are using. I have tried a soya protein powder, containing 18 amino acids. Unfortunately, after two weeks of it being in the pitchers, the smell was very bad so I ended up removing it and flushing. I think the smell may have had something to do with the egg white solids and brewer's yeast in the powder. No harm was done to the pitcher though and a new pitcher is developing adjacent to the one which contained the mix. I might try it again but with less protein mix added as I think I might have added too much last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudo klasovity Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Amori: My first intention was to use a classical protein shake but then i found that majority of this mix cannot be digested by the plants so it accumulates in the pitchers and also in substrate and contaminates it. Then the powder residue becomes a great substrate for mould fungi etc. So I wanted to switch to the most effective form - BCAA (branche-chained amino acids). These I didnt use because they are way too expensive to be fed to plants (I love my CPs but not that much;-)))). So I am using a mix of pure amino acids. Mobile: I think you used too much of that mix and that the mix was not the best thing to be used for this purpose. I used to have the same problem when I started experiments. If you give feed the plant too much it will either die or you will encounter fungi attack or something like that (especially when your mix contains sugars and the plant is grown at higher humidity levels) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 BCAA consist of 3 amino acids - leucine, isoleucine and valine. Can these be utilised by plants? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudo klasovity Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) These three are in a group of 9 AA called essential (the ones that body cannot produce itself). That is why they are used for humans to boost and protect muscles and also speeds up bone and skin recovery. Note: there are other BCAA than these 3 you mentioned. I dont know how about in UK but here the BCAA are way too much expensive to be wasted on plants. Remember, the plant doesnt need to grow muscle she only absorbs nitrogen from these compounds. In other words, there are much cheaper aminoacids to be supplemented to the plants to thrive. P.S. If you can afford the BCAA go ahead! Make sure you dont overdose them! Sometimes less is more;-) Edited February 12, 2009 by dudo klasovity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 BCAA is quite expensive here too and is often supplied in either tablet form or powder with added flavourings. Both these forms have additives which may not be of use, or maybe even harmful to plants. The most common amino acid available here, which appears to be available in pure powder form is L-glutamine but I don't know if it would be of any use on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimfoxy Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 How about this one? http://www.superfooduk.com/amino-acid-comp...blets-746-p.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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