Just what is this South West Giant?

[Guest GazCez]

I recently had an interesting conversation about the venus fly trap type South West Giant and began to wonder just what plants are circulating out there in the cp community. My problem is this - which plant do we all have - South West Giant, Adrian Slack's Giant or G16?

On the comprehensive dionaea database it states that the SWG could be the same as the Slack plant and the G16. The pictures I see on the database feature two plants - one with long green petioles and the other a more compact plant with red traps. Apparently they can also behave in similar ways with the plant being upright or more compact. So what do I actually have in my collection? It seems from this that I have two forms of the same plant - or do I?

I obtained one plant directly from South West Carnivorous Plants many years ago, and the other plant labelled as Adrian Slack's Giant from an open day from an unknown seller. One is upright with long green petioles with massive traps that are 1.5 inches, and the other a more compact, colourful plant with red and green trap colouration which occasionally puts out a longer petiole.

I would be interested to see what everyone thinks about this problem. In essence, my question is this - Would the real South West Giant please stand up?

[Alexis]

Yep, there seem to be two "giants" in circulation.

There's no doubt the rosetted one is known as G16.

Whether "SW Giant" is G16 or the more upright one is open to debate.

Likewise, whether "Slack's Giant" is one and the same, or the more upright one is confusing.

Personally, I've always labelled the rosetted one as "G16 Slack's Giant" and the other as "SW Giant"

To add to the confusion the one known as G16 can occasionally go through a spell of growing more upright traps, before settling down again.

[LJ]

G16 is also called Adrian Slacks giant which has a ground hugging habit all year round. Southwest giant is a completely seperate clone and very different, much longer petioles and is named southwest giant because it originates from southwest carnivorous plants.

It should be pretty easy to tell which one you have as they look very different!! It sounds like you have both of these plants - Southwest giant and also G16 (Adrian Slacks giant)

EDIT - if in doubt post some piccies!!

Heather

Edited August 15, 2008 by LJ

[Alexis]

G16 is also called Adrian Slacks giant

Ah, but is it?

[LJ]

On the comprehensive dionaea database it states that the SWG could be the same as the Slack plant and the G16.

I must be missing something here, I'm not sure how there could be confusion between the 2 plants? G16 aka Slacks Giant is a low growing rosetted vft and Soutwest Giant has more upright growth.

Ah, but is it?

Well thats what I always thought yes

Edited August 15, 2008 by LJ

[Alexis]

The two plants are distinct (most of the time), but the name "Slack's Giant" has never been definitely shown to belong to either plant. Most people attribute it to G16, but there's still the possibility "SW Giant" was the original Slack's.

[popespliff]

As the person who named Southwest Giant some 10yrs ago i can tell you that it has only been propagated by vegetative methods (by us at Southwest carnivorous Plants) .I expect some people have used its seed and called the offspring SWG.

We sell SWG hybrids but these are labelled so as not to confuse.

Remember that the plants apperance is based on genetic potential and envionmental conditions inc time of year.

Alistair WWW.littleshopofhorrors.co.uk

[Alexis]

Hi Alistair

What is the origin of the plant originally?

[popespliff]

Hi Alistair

What is the origin of the plant originally?

B&Q .

Seriously i know this is a question that the CP world has been asking for a few years. Here goes .

I originally obtained the clone at an openday in Cornwall at a chap called Ian Facy. Ican only remember the sellers First name as Paul.

This was in the days when a vft was a vft. As far as im aware there was no Adrian Slack Clone or special vft attributed to him. This was the first vft i named . I believe before Graham Sads range of G plants.

I still believe Southwest giant was the first vft to be named for its size.

Next year i will be releasing a new cutivar Called Great White This is a result of crossing many choise vfts over the past 10 years or so It has the size of swg The teeth of Sharks tooth A

and a good dark red inner trap colour.It is less prone to the growing point dieback that swg can suffer from after flowering.

[Guest GazCez]

You can put me down on the list for the Great White Alasdair! Now word is out people are going to go nuts like with the B52. How long is the waiting list already?

[Alexis]

Seriously i know this is a question that the CP world has been asking for a few years. Here goes .

I originally obtained the clone at an openday in Cornwall at a chap called Ian Facy. Ican only remember the sellers First name as Paul.

Interesting.

The inevitable question is, was that Paul Paul Gardner and if so was the plant originally Marston Exotics / Slack stock?

I've always know SW Giant as being the massive plant with long petioles in summer, so I don't know where the "Slack's Giant" name has come from or whether G16 was ever anything to do with Adrian Slack.

"Great White" sounds a great plant. Fantastic name as well.

I remember seeing sarracenia "Asbo" in your Tatton display a couple of years ago as well. That looked like a monster hybrid - are there likely to be any spares over the winter?

[popespliff]

Interesting.

The inevitable question is, was that Paul Paul Gardner and if so was the plant originally Marston Exotics / Slack stock?

I've always know SW Giant as being the massive plant with long petioles in summer, so I don't know where the "Slack's Giant" name has come from or whether G16 was ever anything to do with Adrian Slack.

"Great White" sounds a great plant. Fantastic name as well.

I remember seeing sarracenia "Asbo" in your Tatton display a couple of years ago as well. That looked like a monster hybrid - are there likely to be any spares over the winter?

No it was not Paul Gardener

Graham got the original selection of G plants from a chap called Chris Heath who sold plants at Camdon Market. He also got a swg from me and possiblygave it a G number but you will have to get Grham to confirm that.That may well account for the simmularity. Yes swg has the long petiols during the summer months.

Asbo will be available in a few years time when i have divided it up into a few doz plants I will not be getting it tissue cultured. The price will obviously be obsceeeeeeen

at first . I will try to post a photo of it when i get back from the wisley flower show next week.[ it will be on display there if anyone is visiting].

[gardenofeden]

. Yes swg has the long petiols during the summer months.

that is useful confimation, and is the usual situation in most collections.. G16 does not normally have long petioles.

[Guest Drallin]

I wanted to make a couple comments here. I suppose first I should introduce myself. Hi! I am Leslie from the World of Carnivores CP Forum and World of Carnivores the website.

OK, having said that.

The rosetted and the normal SW Giant is the same plant. Or at least one plant can produce either type. I started 2 SW Giant seeds in TC. After 6 months those two seeds produced dang near 100 plants. Of those almost 20 where the rosetted form. And those are from TC, so both varieties should be pretty common with traditional multiplication methods.

Also, most of the different flytrap types are just regular flytraps. There is some variety in all plants. That's all this is. When you grow them by the hundreds you get some different types that stand out. All people are doing is naming them and using tc or leaf cuttings to make more. But even then your not assured to get the same type of flytrap, especially through seeds. Now, this is not allways the case. Some are altered with chemicals, and some of these turn into normal flytraps after several months/years without the chemicals. And still others are crossed until the desired effect is achieved, these types are true and will hold their characteristics for their lifetimes. But may or may not make identical plants in TC or with cuttings. But seeds general work when self pollinated fairly well.

So don't get too worried over exacts. Even the pros rarely know for sure. Whether they admit it or not.

I think the SW Giant originated at South West Carnivorous Plants in the UK. So if you want more info I would suggest contacting them.

I am extremely happy with our SW Giants. Growing like mad, second year plants are making well over 1 inch traps. They are growing next to 5 year old normal flytraps and you can't tell one is older than the other. But we did start them in TC, that makes a major difference. Some of them are even flowering this year!! The start of their second year! Amazing. At least to me.

You can find a lot of evidence saying SW Giants will make up to 2" traps. There is no doubt in my mind they can get even bigger. After all, I have some typical flytraps almost 10 years old that make 1.5" traps regularly. I really think 2" traps on the sw is conservative for sure.

OK, I think that's all I wanted to add.

[Sean Spence]

You started them from seed in TC?- therefore not SW Giants.

[LJ]

Yep - what Sean said!

Named clones/cultivars should not be propagated by seed - otherwise they may not turn out exactly like the parents and might the lose the characteristics they were named for in the first place!!! Seed grown plants will show variability, I seriously hope you dont sell these plants on as Southwest Giant as they should really be propagated from the mother plant vegetatively to be called by the same name

If the parent plant was selfed then name the seedlings Southwest Giant X Southwest Giant. That way people will know they are different from the named clone Southwest Giant.

Heather

[Sean Spence]

I seriously hope you dont sell these plants on as Southwest Giant as they should really be propagated from the mother plant vegetatively to be called by the same name

hmmm. http://www.world-of-carnivores.com/cgi-bin/store/pid_155.htm

[LJ]

Oh dear! That will mean there will be some poor people out there who will end up with plants that they think are Southwest Giants but actually arent.

I also dont agree they need cold stratification to germinate, nor do you need gibberellic acid.

I would advise everyone to check where their plants come from and how they were propagated to make sure you are getting the 'real deal'.

[Amar]

Drallin, you should really go over your website and make some corrections. I know it must be tempting to sell 'SWG seeds', but if you do that, then you in effect are making things that are already in a bad state, worse.

We all love our plants, it's a fascinating hobby, but if we want any order at all, if we want to clear up any, already existing, mess at all, then we (especially the sellers) must be responsible and follow the taxonomic rules very strictly. I hope you'll consider that and make some changes on your site.

best, Amar.

One more thing: welcome. :)

Edited June 17, 2009 by Amar

[mantrid]

OK, having said that.

The rosetted and the normal SW Giant is the same plant. Or at least one plant can produce either type.

It is clear from this statement that they are NOT the same plant if they are different.

I started 2 SW Giant seeds in TC. After 6 months those two seeds produced dang near 100 plants. Of those almost 20 where the rosetted form. And those are from TC, so both varieties should be pretty common with traditional multiplication methods.

This second statement explains it clearly. A knowledge of basic school level genetics tells you that plants from seed are genetically different from either of the parents, even if those parents are identical (clones). So you are not actually tissue culturing SWG from these seeds. And the fact that you have phenotypically different plants from the seeds supports this.

It is clear why plants from two different parents (sexual reproduction) are genetically different to both parents as some genes are from one parent and the rest from the other parent. Its less obvious why the plants from identical parents (clones) are genetically different to the parents. Put simply it is due to genes or sections of genes being removed/added from/to the chromosomes, or swapping chromosomes or even flipping around during gamete formation. So the chromosomes in the pollen and eggs have become different to what they were in the parents cells. This difference is then enhanced when the pollen nuclei and egg nuclei fuse. As the new embryo will contain differences in its chromosomes from the two parents. Usually the plants grown from the seeds will look exactly like the parents (phenotypically alike) as the changes in the chromosomes would have been small. However, their genetic makeup will be different (genotypically different). They have to be genetically the same as SWG to be a SWG and as yours cannot be then your 100 plants are not SWG. I advise a bit of reading up on basic genetics.