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UtricSeb

CPs in Santander, Colombia

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Hello,

Last week i revisited some places with CPs in Santander here in Colombia and also explored some new places.

Among the plants i saw it was a Drosera from the cayennensis/colombiana group growing in grasslands at 1800 meters over sea level, also D.communis and some Utricularia species. I also found a new place for U.jamesoniana.

I will write about this trip and show pictures later, but for now you can see this picture of the first Drosera mentioned above:

gallery_596_109_135929.jpg

Hope you like this.

Regards,

Sebastián

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Great news, Sebastián! Looking forward to it, and the Utricularia you found there.

Regards

Martin

Edited by Martin Hingst

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Hi Sebastián,

really a nice looking Drosera you have found there.

So the flower stalk is hairy, interesting, i like Drosera with hairy scapes. :P

I can´t expect the other pictures from your fieldtrip. :yes:

Thanks for sharing.

Best regards,

Dani

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Hola Sebastián,

I'll reply to your PM in public here:

It is hard to tell from the resolution of your photograph (which is excellent, by the way!), but it seems like this plant has only non-glandular hairs on its scape. Therefore this should be D. colombiana.

D. cayennensis bears both glandular and non-glandular hairs on the upper part of the scape and the sepals. The location and altitude you found the plant at are more typical for D. colombiana then for D. cayennensis, too.

However, I'm still not quite convinced about the seperate specific state of D. colombiana vs. D. cayennensis vs. D. brevifolia. I haven't studied many populations/specimens of these 3 species yet, to be certain that the minute characters seperating them are stable across there range. If there would be any intermediates, it would make sense to circumscribe them by one single species, i.e. D. brevifolia.

I don't have my literature on hand right now, too, but I can send the descriptions to you on monday, if you like.

All the best,

Andreas

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Hello all,

Wow, Andreas goes even one step further than I do, by lumping them all under D.brevifolia! :tu:

Although surely a close relative, I prefer to leave D.brevifolia separate and lump under D.cayennensis the following taxa: D.colombiana, D.panamensis, D.pumila, and D.sanariapoana. But I certainly don't exclude the possibility of the latter group representing more than one taxa. It's just too confusing and porrly studied at the moment.

Andreas, don't you have in cultivation *75* different forms of D.cayennensis/ colombiana/ pumila/ sanariapoana to compare??? (Sorry, private joke, hehehe!) :):)

Take care,

Fernando Rivadavia

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Wow, Andreas goes even one step further than I do, by lumping them all under D.brevifolia! :tu:

I was you who convinced me that the switch between glandular and eglandular hairs in Drosera is only a tiny step. Thus if we considered D. colombiana (eglandular hairs on scape and calyx only) and D. cayennensis (glandular plus eglandular hairs) to be conspecific, why not including the very similar D. brevifolia (glandular hairs only), too? Or if seperating D. brevifolia, why then not seperating D. colombina due to the same reasons? ;) I fully agree with you with the other species, being either conspecific with D. cayennensis or D. colombiana.

This is one of the most intricate species complexes of northern South America (the other one is the D. esmeraldae-capillaris-tenella-pusilla-biflora-complex ;)).

Andreas, don't you have in cultivation *75* different forms of D.cayennensis/ colombiana/ pumila/ sanariapoana to compare??? (Sorry, private joke, hehehe!) :):)

Haha, good one! Touché! ;)

No, I don't. Seems like we will have to make some collection trips to Venezuela/Colombia soon ;)

All the best,

Andreas

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Hello Andreas,

It's not the hairs that matter to me in this case. I just feel that D.brevifolia has followed an evolutionary path of its own, adapting to cooler subtemperate areas, compared to D.cayennensis (here including D.colombiana, D.panamensis, D.pumila & D.sanariapoana), which are tropical in distribution. Plus there's the leaf shape, which is much more cuneate in D.brevifolia and more rounded in D.cayennensis. Last of all, D.brevifolia has the reduced stipules...

Either way, this would be a greatt little group to do a genetic study with... We've already even got material of plants from across the range of this complex! :)

Best Wishes,

Fernando Rivadavia

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Wow, I like this discussion. Thanks Andreas and Fernando for your replies, you are always welcome to Colombia and I will take to to see these plants here.

Andreas, I'd like to get descriptions for these species so I accept your offer to send that. I made an herbarium of this plant and can try to find to which description it accomodates better.

Another fact about this particular population is that I have now find that it grows as a seasonal. I visited this place for the first time on August 2007 and found lots of plants around a tiny stream of watter with humid grownd around it. There were also some utrics growing there.

On my visit last week, i found that the place was much drier, the small stream of water had no water at all and I could only find 3 plants at some spots that still remained humid, there were just no more plants and I could not even find utrics. Unfortunately as there were so few plants I could not get any seed too.

Regards,

Sebastian

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Hello Sebas,

Yes, plants of the D.cayennensis group are found in areas with pronounced dry seasons and they go dormant as roots underground, growing back when the rains return.

I haven't studied D.brevifolia enough in Brazil and I can't say if it goes dormant too. Maybe somebody in the US could add something about plants there??

Best Wishes,

Fernando Rivadavia

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Hello,

Sebastian, thanks for sending the high-resolution image of the photos shown above. This did help me to notice one more character seperating D. colombiana from D. cayennensis. Maybe it's time to change my taxonomical opinion regarding this species now ;-).

So this plant you have found and pictured here indeed matches typical D. colombiana in all respects, no doubts! (Whether you decide to seperate D. colombiana from D. cayennensis (or even D. brevifolia) depens on the taxonomical concept you want to follow, however). I have found one more distinctive character to seperate D. colombiana from D. cayennensis: the leaf petiole hairiness. In D. cayennensis, the petioles are either glabrous, or covered with few glandular hairs. In D. colombiana, the petioles are densely covered by simple white hairs, on both lower and upper side. This can't be seen in this photo shown by Sebastian here very well, but this character exactly matches the type description! Please, Sebastian, could you additionally post one of your other photos (like 0092) that illustrates what I'm trying to explain? I can post photos of D. cayennensis from the Gran Sabana for comparision then (or just look at Fernando's photos from one of his previous travel reports. Those are of better quality than mine anyway ;-)).

Thus we have a situation here comparable to the D.ascendens-villosa-complex. And as I prefer to talk about D. ascendens and D. villosa as seperate species (although I know that they are very very closely related), I'm going to consider D. colombiana as a decent species more or less well seperated from D. cayennensis by at least a pair of characters from now on ;-). Not bad at all, one more species of Drosera from South America that I'm still missing in my collection. ;-)

All the best,

Andreas

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Hello Andreas,

Good point about the petiole hairyness! But what did you see in the Gran Sabana plants? Are they D.colombiana or D.cayennensis in your opinion?

Although you could separate D.villosa from D.ascendens based on petiole hairyness, there's another case which might be more appropriate here: D.tomentosa.

In D.tomentosa the petioles can be extremely hairy beneath, or only slightly so. Also, they are usually glabrous above, but they can also be hairy! Futhermore, the scapes vary from entirely glandular to several degrees of mixtures between glandular and eglandular hairs.

This is very similar to what we observe in D.cayennensis-colobiana-panamensis-pumila-sanariapoana (as well as in D.villosa-ascendens). At least with D.villosa-ascendens we appear to have clear boundaries between the taxa (morphological and geographic).

In D.tomentosa the boundaries are not too clear, but there are 2 very clear extremes in hairyness and the extremes are sometimes found in neighboring habitats and even growing sympatrically, suggesting that there are truly 2 taxa involved, which are probably best kept as varieties: var.tomentosa & var. glabrata (in fact Andreas, I keep forgetting to ask you: when you go to the Paris herbarium, I would really like to ask you to take a look at the holotypes of these 2 for me and describe the distribution of hairs on the scape!).

But in the D.cayennensis complex I have not been able to define any clear-cut boundaries between the hairy forms and non-hairy forms, whether morphological or geographic. This is due in great part to the rarity of this species in the wild, both in number of populations + individuals as well as in the seasonally ephemeral nature of this taxon.

So I do not doubt that we are possibly dealing with more than one taxon in the D.cayennensis-complex, whether species or subspecies/ varieties. But it is just not clear to me yet if these can be separated by clear morphologic, ecologic, and/or geographic boundaries.

Best Wishes,

Fernando Rivadavia

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Hello everybody, Andreas and Fernando,

Here is another picture of this sundew (Drosera colombiana) where the petiole hairs are visible.

Regards,

Sebastian

gallery_596_109_17517.jpg

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Hi Sebastian

Nice Drosera... (Andreas and Fernando, always arguing :happy: )!!!

Regards.

Edited by Carlos Rohrbacher

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Hello again, now let's go to Santander and meet those places I have found there where CPs are growing.

Today, I will show you the first of those places. It is located near Bucaramanga, capital city of Santander province at the top of a plateau known as "Mesa de los Santos" because there is a town called "Los Santos", the top of this plateau is at around 1900 meters over sea level, with hot sunny days and moderately cold nights. Weather is dry and that is why vegetagion is mostly grasslands and at some places xerophytic with small shrubs, cactus and other succulent plants. Soil is very sandy and rocky and the water from rains or condensation forms little streams that at some places form habitats appropriate for CPs.

I have been to one of the borders of this plateau that faces a canyon known as "Cañon del Chicamocha", a beautifull place with some very nice rock cliffs.

Here I have found Drosera communis, you can see it here having some meal:

D_communis_La_Mojarra-01.jpg

Can you see other CPs in this picture?

and another meal, with colofull eyes:

D_communis_La_Mojarra-02.jpg

Here you can see a group of plants, some with developing flower stalks:

D_communis_La_Mojarra-03.jpg

D.communis can grow almost inside water, running water, with some utrics:

D_communis_La_Mojarra-04.jpg

a closer look:

D_communis_La_Mojarra-05.jpg

close-up of one plant:

D_communis_La_Mojarra-07.jpg

a flower:

D_communis_La_Mojarra-08.jpg

These plants are really hungry:

D_communis_La_Mojarra-09.jpg

and at some places, grow in big numbers:

D_communis_La_Mojarra-10.jpg

.. well, and I also found some interesting Utricularia, you have already seen some but here you can see some more interesting pictures.

First, a very small form of U.amethystina with white flowers:

U_amethystina_La_Mojarra-02.jpg

very common, is Utricularia pusilla:

U_pusilla_La_Mojarra-01.jpg

U.pusilla also grows at the borders of one artificial lake near this place:

U_pusilla_Acuarela-01.jpg

Rarely seen blooming at this place, I also found the well know U.subulata:

U_subulata_La_Mojarra-02.jpg

a closer look:

U_subulata_La_Mojarra-01.jpg

and also quite common is a beautiful form of U.tricolor with big purple/magenta flowers. First I show you the private parts of this plant:

U_tricolor_La_Mojarra-01.jpg

A pair of nice blooms:

U_tricolor_La_Mojarra-02.jpg

an interesting finding. One antipollinator spider, waiting for its pray:

U_tricolor_La_Mojarra-03.jpg

The vegetative parts of this species:

U_tricolor_La_Mojarra-04.jpg

and finally, a group of flowers between the grasses:

U_tricolor_La_Mojarra-05.jpg

I hope you liked this first place. I will write about the other places later, when I find some more time.

Regards,

Sebastian

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Very nice, Sebastian! Esp. the U. tricolor.

Did you see any opened flowers of this one in the open areas like in the second last pic? Or only when supporting vegetation was present?

Thanks for these nice shots -

Martin

Edited by Martin Hingst

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Very nice, Sebastian! Esp. the U. tricolor.

Did you see any opened flowers of this one in the open areas like in the second last pic? Or only when supporting vegetation was present?

Thanks for these nice shots -

Martin

Hello Martin

Have you seen the flower stalks on the second last pic? In my opinion U.tricolor flowers don´t need a climbing aid.

Regards Alexander

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Hi Alexander,

I have seen some forms that do not need a grip, and maybe "need" is too strong anyway, but I think for some forms - e.g. the common form in cultivation, it is at least very helpful.

Of course I have seen this second last pic and the stalks there, I was referring to it in my reply. And I would not be surprised if the stalks there would all (or at least the very most of them) abort after having reached 10-15 cm.

Regards

Martin

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Hello Martin,

You are right. At those places where I have found U.tricolor, I have never seen flowers where the plants are growing in the open (like the second last pic) even when there are lots of short flower stalks. Flowers are always found at the tip of long scapes arising from the grasses and supported by other plants.

Have you been able to get flowers in culture by giving the stalks some support? I have not tried that and my stalks always abort.

Hi Alexander,

I have seen some forms that do not need a grip, and maybe "need" is too strong anyway, but I think for some forms - e.g. the common form in cultivation, it is at least very helpful.

Of course I have seen this second last pic and the stalks there, I was referring to it in my reply. And I would not be surprised if the stalks there would all (or at least the very most of them) abort after having reached 10-15 cm.

Regards

Martin

Edited by UtricSeb

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Great discussion! :sun_bespectacled:

I might add that the D. brevifolia is quite different here in the USA; and perhaps a closer examination of the differences might reveal that enough significant changes have occurred to warrant those plants called D. brevifolia in South America to another species. The floral parts will be the most critical aspects of course, similar to those plants that resemble D. intermedia and D. capillaris here in the South Eastern USA. BTW, D. brevifloia here is an annual, and dies after flowering and dispersing seed; and does not go dormant to my knowledge.

From what I recall, it has very short petioles, very cuneiform leaf shape, prostrate, laying flat on the ground, with few, if any stipules in the center.

Perhaps someone living in the area could post some good images of these plants here. :tu: - Rich

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Hello everyone,

Rich, I don't believe the 1st plants above are D.brevifolia. I prefer D.cayennensis, but possibly D.colombiana is a good species too.

Sebastian, fantastic pictures!! Really! Especially the D.communis ones with prey. The white U.amethystina is beautiful, but I was really surprised to see such large U.tricolor in Colombia. This lalrger form I usually only see in S parts of Brazil. It seems that the further N I go, the smaller they become. But your pics show that large ones are also present in the N.

Alex & Martin: U.tricolor in Brazil, especially the large forms, love growing among tall grasses in very wet spots.

Thanks Sebas!

Fernando Rivadavia

P.S. When are you going to find D.cendeensis in Colombia? ;) Also, I miss seeing more pics of your Colombian Pings!

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Have you been able to get flowers in culture by giving the stalks some support? I have not tried that and my stalks always abort.

Hi Sebastian,

yes, but by chance and not by intention :sun_bespectacled:

I have always very many stalks, but over the years only two times success with flowering. The second time (that was last year) I remembered a common observation - only those stalks flowered that had some support, so I want to fix that systematically now.

This year I have three stalks so far. One I gave support, by now it is already twice the length than the unsupported ones, that stopped at a certain length of ca. 10 cm. I will now give support to one of those ceased ones, and see what happens.

Three stalks is of course a too small number for a really convincing conclusion. But it is just early spring here, thats all I got at the moment. I will expand this experimenmt in late summer, when the normal flowering time comes for my plants. Maybe you would like to support my experiments and give it a try as well?

Thank you for the information and

regards

Martin

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Fernando, I agree 100%, and I have doubts that the same D. brevifolia that grows here in the South East USA is the same D. brevifolia that grows in South America. ;) - Rich

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Hello Sebastian,

very nice plants, the pictures are really perfect, perhaps the sharpest i have ever seen from fieldtrips. :tu:

Very often the dew is washed away by rain or the plants are growing at more dry places, so they have not much dew.

Very nice and well coloured D. communis, they seem to be very hungry. :biggrin:

About the first picture, do you mean the leafes from U. tricolor in the front, or is it something else?

The Utricularia of course are also very interesting, especially the beautiful form of U. tricolor with big purple/magenta flowers. :nyam1:

Here i have also the same problems as a lot of other growers have: they don´t want to flower. I have never had a flower for several years, but i have not tested other methods like fixing the emerging flower stalks. This is the reason why i don´t care about this plant, it is just producing leafes, but after i have seen these pictures here, i will try a few things. :thumbsup:

The spider picture is very nice too.

I nearly can´t wait for the next pictures. :thumright:

Many thanks for sharing these nice pictures.

Best regards,

Dani

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Hi Rich,

Fernando, I agree 100%, and I have doubts that the same D. brevifolia that grows here in the South East USA is the same D. brevifolia that grows in South America. ;) - Rich

Same as which one of the USA forms? :):) At least in S.America they are relatively very uniform.

Best Wishes,

Fernando Rivadavia

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Hey Folks,

I've seen D. brevifolia in many parts of the USA, so Rich asked me to comment.

Using my USA (and not South America!) experience, I am sometimes hesitant to confidently ID small Drosera rosettes. Some who are more expert than I might roll their eyes, but to me, when the plants are small, weird D. capilliaris can look like D. brevifolia. Meanwhile, weird D. brevifolia can look like D. capilliaris.

That being said, the flowering plant with the hairy (but oddly, not pubescent) scape on the 26 March post above does not quite seem to look like proper D. brevifolia. The leaves are not quite cuneate enough. They seem a little too paddle-shaped.

Images I have of D. brevifolia in Florida, Mississippi, North Carolina, and Texas can be seen here

Cheers

Barry

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