Amar

Drosera capensis Baines Kloof

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But my question is: The seeds, will they germinate into a regular capensis, or into a Baines Kloof?

thanks. :)

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Hi Amar,

"Baines Kloof" is no cultivar name, but a location in South Africa. So, the seedlings will be "Baines Kloof" plants again.

Of course there may be some variation in the seedlings, as it always happens.

A different story would be, if there is a specific clone with a distinctive feature, like a red one, or something. This feature might change or get lost in the next generation.

Regards

Martin

Edited by Martin Hingst

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Danke Martin. :happy:

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I do have one more question though. I knew that it wasn't a cultivar, but nonetheless, it is a sort of a Drosera capensis, albeit one that looks a bit different. But if it is not a *cultivated variation*, just a *variation*, then shouldn't the correct name be: Drosera capensis var. Baines Kloof, or would it be Drosera capensis f. Baines Kloof?

Apology to those who loathe these taxonomy questions..

Edited by Amar

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A location form does not need not be a taxonomicly distinct form that would deserve e.g. a var. status.

But I will stop here - I am no taxonomist, and so sometimes I do have my problems to follow the argumentation of those (same might be true sometimes even for any other taxonomist though...) but for me my "Baines Kloof" plant looks quite different to my other capensis plants...

(oh God, my English... is it "taxonomicly distinct" or "taxonomic distinct" or "distinct taxonomic" or whatever :happy: )

Edited by Martin Hingst

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Hello, I have a few of these plants and although they have flowered, I have never been able to get seed. Sometimes I wish they would as they have an interesting growth pattern. Also, the flowers are generally messed up... I don't have a current picture, but here are some older pictures of the plants and flowers.

dcapeblaineskloofflower.jpg

capensisbainskloof3-16-06.jpg

dblaneskloofflower5-1-04.jpg

capensisbainskloof3-16-06close.jpg

Andrew

Edit: sometimes the flowers are okay though... links given instead to save the dial up folks in this thread :)

http://www.cpforums.org/gallery/d/22318-1/...kloofflower.jpg

http://www.cpforums.org/gallery/d/22319-1/...skloofplant.jpg

Edited by adnedarn

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Hello,

yes, i have the same "problem". Only from time to time i´m able to get a little bit seed of my several plants.

The flower stalks are much shorter as by "normal" D. capensis and there are not a lot of seed capsules. This year i had no luck with my flowers, they also have not produced any seed. :happy:

So, in this point they differ very much from the other D. capensis variations.

Best regards,

Dani

P.S.: Andrew, i don´t think that your plant is a D. capensis `Baines Kloof´. Your plant is looking to normal. The leafes are to long.

Here you can see several pictures from my plants and you can compare them. There we also have discussed a few points, also the seed "problem".

Some Drosera

Edited by Daniel O.

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None of my hundreds other D. capensis plants grow like this one. I've never had another capensis grow a stem as this does either (or as large.. those are 3.5" pots...). Also, the seed was acquired from lowrie, so I'm pretty positive 'Baines Kloof' is where it come from. Since this isn't a registered plant with a description, I guess it's difficult to tell what the form "should" be. :) Does yours grow on a stem?

Andrew

Edited by adnedarn

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A point I should add is that Allen Lowrie acquires seed via donation or swapping. He has no way of knowing if all of the seed he receives is true to the plant that is supposed to be from. I wouldn't assume that because it came from Lowrie it must therefore be correctly identified. For example, I have purchased seed as D. rubrifolia only for it to grow into a form of D. spatulata. Not Allen's fault, rather the person that he got it from.

The best person to correctly identify the true form of D. capensis from Bainskloof would be the person that originally collected it. There is also the chance that there may be a number of different looking forms from Bainskloof, particularly if the plants were introduced from wild collected seed.

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There is also the chance that there may be a number of different looking forms from Bainskloof, particularly if the plants were introduced from wild collected seed.

Yes, Sean, and to make it worse, there may - at least theoretically - be different taxa of drosera capensis growing at Bainskloof as well. Anybody knows about that?

But what I wanted to say was that one should not mix up taxonomic descriptions with location names. While the former may be a complicated thing, the latter itself is confusing enough! You are right Sean with Bainskloof (one word, and without an "e" in it), but it seems as if not all South Africans care too much about spelling (I guess there are some funny jokes around that :smile: ). So you will find Bainskloof, Bains Kloof, Baineskloof, Baines Kloof even used by those (and even by botanists :wacko: ). Maybe the pronounciation is the more decisive thing :smile: should be the Afrikaans "Klu-ef"

Edited by Martin Hingst

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Hi hi,

yes, indeed it´s funny with the names. Everybody is changing them a little bit. :smile:

I was not exactly sure about the correct explanation.

Martin, i received it as Bain´s Kloof Pass, another version. :smile:

Andrew, yes it has a stem, it´s now about 16cm long, but it´s more compact in comparison to yours.

In the link above you can see the pictures and the discussion about the seed. :wacko:

I also have received a lot of seed in the past and i was often disapointed, also from Lowrie, so we never can be 100% sure.

Best regards,

Dani

Edited by Daniel O.

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Of course there can be errors in any system :smile: I've seen pictures simular to both of ours when talking about this plant. I always guessed both grow in this location. Hard to say having never been there. :) There used to be photos from other growers on Bobz's photo finder that matched my plants... They're gone now though, I wonder if they were updated to another name, or the pictures are just no longer available... Perhaps mine is closer to one from Montague Pass

http://www.utricularia.net/bilder/drosera/...DROS199_002.jpg

http://www.utricularia.net/bilder/drosera/...DROS199_001.jpg

I should look more into that...

Thanks,

Andrew

Edited by adnedarn

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Hi,

I also got Lowrie's seed of this form some years ago, and as has been mentioned, it is not easy to make sense of this since the original source of the seed is unknown. Mine are different in shape, ranging from looking like "normal" capensis to some with broader leaves. Also, I took some leaf cuttings of some wide leaved specimens, and when grown to size some still had rather narrow leaves. However, I can't remember they having as long and narrow lamina as Andrew's plants. Mine also set seed after flowering without problems. I am pondering if the plants in this population/or populations (BK may be a big area) is not as uniform as we think. I got the "real" Bains kloof last year (as a plant) and although it looks different I haven't been growing them in the exact same conditions. It seems that the robust, wide leaved shaped plant has set the standard, sort of of what it should look like, but it is possible that Lowrie seed is correctly labeled too. Since the "real" form seems to look different, I think they should be kept apart, until we know more. I know I was disappointed when my seed grown specimens matured and didn't look like what I had expected. It is strange that the "real" doesn't set seed readily, like capensis usually do. I wonder if it is because of a mutation, or maybe some other species has been involved.

Regards,

Christer

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Hi Christer,

i aslo got my plants a few years ago from Kamil, so i also don´t have grown them from seed.

They are looking totally different in comparison to all other forms of D. capensis i have ever seen. Sometimes they are producing (but not tonns of seed like all the other D. capensis) seed, sometimes not.

Are your plants looking totally different? Do you have pictures?

Best regards,

Dani

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Hi Daniel,

I got my other D. capensis BK from Nepenti in August last year. I don't know if they are the same as Kamils. Here are some photos from October last year.

capensisBK.jpg

Nepentis plant on the left, and my seed grown from Lowrie on the right.

capensisBK2.jpg

Closer look at seed plant.

As can be seen this one have longer petioles, and the rosette on top of the stem. The size difference might be deceiving since the were not grown side by side, so it might be because of the growing conditions. Although the description in Lowries catalogue said that it was a large form. Nepentis plant hasn't flowered yet, but the Lowrie plants has "normal" sized flower stalk, not short like your plant.

Regards,

Christer

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Hi Christer,

thanks for posting your pictures.

Your both plants differ very much in my opinion.

The left one from Lucasz from Nepenti is looking more like my plants than the right one (your plants could have a little bit more light :D ).

I know i few more growers here in Germany, the plants they have are identical to mine. A german CP nurseries also is selling the same plants as ´Baines Kloof´.

I think Nepenti had his plants also from Kamil at the beginning. CZplants for example also are selling plants from Kamil, because he is to busy for the hole job.

We can´t be 100% sure, but to exchange seed can always happen. Allen is selling several species that for sure are not "existing" in this way, like a red-flowered D. natalensis, D. tridentata, D. benedictiana and some others in his list, so i think he has perhaps the wrong seed.

I´m exciting to see if your plant from Nepenti will have any seed, but i think it will not get bigger in diameter.

Best regards,

Dani

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... There used to be photos from other growers on Bobz's photo finder that matched my plants... They're gone now though, I wonder if they were updated to another name, or the pictures are just no longer available...

You will notice that links in my CP Photo Finder frequently disappear. I periodically run a link tester and when I find broken links, I first check out the owner's web site to try to determine why the link is broken. People are constantly removing photos, pages, and entire web sites. It is frustrating when a beautiful set of photos disappear.

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Your both plants differ very much in my opinion.

The left one from Lucasz from Nepenti is looking more like my plants than the right one (your plants could have a little bit more light wink.gif ).

Hi Daniel,

I agree that Lucasz plant looks more like the "real" thing, and yes, they sure could use some more light. I will experiment this year to see how they respond to lots of light.

I know i few more growers here in Germany, the plants they have are identical to mine. A german CP nurseries also is selling the same plants as ´Baines Kloof´.

I think Nepenti had his plants also from Kamil at the beginning. CZplants for example also are selling plants from Kamil, because he is to busy for the hole job.

It would be interesting to know from where this plant surfaced originally. Considering that it has taken some time for it to be distributed, it seems it is mostly propagated vegetatively. That makes me think this one might be a oddity, and may not be the norm for the D. capensis from Bains Kloof. Or maybe the requirements to have it produce ""normal" amounts of seed in cultivation isn't met somehow.

We can´t be 100% sure, but to exchange seed can always happen. Allen is selling several species that for sure are not "existing" in this way, like a red-flowered D. natalensis, D. tridentata, D. benedictiana and some others in his list, so i think he has perhaps the wrong seed.

Yes, I have experienced the same with species coming from outside Australia, like D. sp. "Auyan Tepui", on the other hand the aussie species seed has been correctly labeled for me, as far as I know.

I´m exciting to see if your plant from Nepenti will have any seed, but i think it will not get bigger in diameter.

I think your right there. As I wrote the photos are from August, and even if my growing conditions isn't perfect, it has so far stayed the same diameter, only increasing in height.

Regards,

Christer

Edited by christerb

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Hi,

there seem to be two plants in cultivation, that are spread with the tag "Baines Kloof". The first is the one with the very long petioles as pictured by adnedarn some post before. I feel, that the right Drosera capensis from Baines Kloof is looking like in this picture: http://home.sdirekt-net.de/mwelge5/arten/d...ra_capensis.htm . This is also the plant, that is grown most often with this location here in germany (in fact i have not seen plants, that look different from this one in germany). I am not really sure, but i think, the plants were originally spread from germany (please correct me if someone knows it better). So, unless your plant looks like the one in Matthias and Markus pictures, i doubt it is the true one.

I have not flowered my Baines Kloof so far. From looking at the plant, i can very well imagine, that this could be a hybrid with some "typical" D. capensis involved. I would really like to know which other Drosera are growing at Baines Kloof. Maybe you can find typical plants growing besides these wide leaved plants as well as other Drosera? Has anyone visited Baines Kloof recently (Andreas??)?

I am growing a wider range of D. capensis locations forms (and some without) at the moment, which also include the Baines Kloof form. I also be interested in knowing which location forms are in cultivation at the moment. I am myself growing plants from Matroosberg, Vogelgaat, Montagu Pass (might not be from there), Giftberg (the red form), Ceres and as said from Baines Kloof. I know, there are also plants from "Theewaterskloof Dam Road

" in cultivation. So, are there any other location forms in cultivation?

Christian

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Hello,

This discussion about what could be the "right" D. capensis from Baines Kloof is ridiculous, as the Baines Kloof NR is a large valley, where several populations of D. capensis exist! And D. capensis is quite variable across its range, plants originating from different populations usually look sligthly different.

Both plants shown here could well originate from Baines Kloof! In 2006, we have found large plants with long, narrow petioles (like the plants shown in Andrew's photos) on a west-facing sphagnum dripping wall at the base of the valley. At this site, the plants were growing sympatrically with D. trinervia (which seems not to got dormant at all in this permanently wet soil) and U. bisquamata (the weedy small flowered form). Close to this location, on drier ground, mass populations of a multi-flowered form of D. cistiflora occur (which has smaller petals and was therefore described as a doubtfull new species, D. liniflora, by Paul Debbert).

The stem forming variant of D. capensis with long internodes and short but broad petioles is a montane plant of high altitude sites of the mountains bordering Baines Kloof valley (where D. regia grows, too). This plant grows in permanently cool seeping water year round, and it may even experinece very cold temps and occassionally snow in winter (Eric Green, pers. com.). That is why this plant sometimes forms even winter bud-like structures in mid winter under greenhouse conditions, and slows down growth very much (like the high altitude "form" of D. regia).

BTW, seed set of my plants in the greenhouse is quite good, if I hand-pollinated the flowers. Thus maybe terrarium cultivation should be blamed for your bad results?

As far as I know, this stem-forming, short petioled plant from Baines Kloof was introduced in cultivation in Germany by Thomas Carow several years (decades ;)) ago.

Andreas

PS: Christian,

I could add D. capensis from Silvermine NR (hughe plants, maybe the biggest of all D. cistiflora forms, reaching up to at least 30 cm in diam.), from Palmiet River NR (stem forming, very very long narrow petioles in spring, more hairy than the other "forms" of D. capensis). The plants from Thewaterskloof Dam are not very spectacular, they are very close to the odd small "narrow leaf form" of D. capensis, which is available in every nursery. BTW, thanks for seed of the Matroosberg plants! This one went "dormant" under my greenhouse conditions, too. Makes sense well, as the Matroosberg are some of the highest mountains (with snow-covered tips, where D. acaulis grows ;)) of the Western Cape.

Edited by Andreas Fleischmann

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Andreas,

Thanks for the reply, it is very nice to hear from someone that has been there (and very observant at it I will add!) and tells of what he sees. I have never tried to pollinate my flowers... I just know they don't self pollinate as other D. capensis plants tend to. Since the rise of this topic, a trade has been put in place where I will trade my plant for the other form talked about here. It will be very cool (for both of us) to see these plants side by side. Perhaps even cross them and see what comes of it! I was under the assumption that there could be multiple forms of D. capensis in a location but since I hadn't been there.. It was just more speculation to toss in the pot! It would also be nice if you could gather pictures of your next trip to this local. You mention D. trinervia growing along side this plant in the valley- which is interesting because I just recently received this plant a few months ago and is doing AMAZINGLY next to this plant.

Andrew

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Hi Andreas,

thanks for the explanation.

You mentioned that the region called Baines Kloof is not very small.

I have looked as what i received the plants. The plants i received a few years ago from Kamil where labeled as D. capensis ´Bain´s Kloof Pass´ (i know that´s written wrong :yes: ) , so it seems so as they are from the higher altitude you also mentioned.

And yes, in winter they are really growing much slower (and the leafes also are shorter than in summer) than other D. capensis i´m also growing.

Best regards,

Dani

Edited by Daniel O.

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The plant I have, which was a seedling, was sent to me by Jörg Nessler in Germany. He told me his Mother-plant had abundantly set seed, through self-pollination. So it remains to be seen if the flowers of my own plant will produce any seed.

Pictures taken 3 days ago:

DBK.jpg

DBKstalk.jpg

Edited by Amar

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And what a nice flower it is! :wink:

BainesKloof.jpg

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