Guest Aidan Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 (edited) There are several interesting points to note here: in the official description of 'SG' there is no mention of any red coloration in anything but the growth point and secondly he mentions the Citronelle site in Alabama. I personally have been to that site many times (unfortunatlly, the only visit during flowering season we found all the flowers had been cut for the wholesale cut flower market days before) and what was not mentioned is that this site is known for it's huge hybrid swarms of leuco x alata x rubra gulfensis. Even the best of us would be hard pressed to make sense of the plants in that bog. (It also needs to be noted that this is the same site that produced the anthro free alata now in cultivation.) There is a photo of a plant in circulation taken at that bog that I called "Pink Eye" that does exactly what you describe, very white early on (so white in the lid that there is almost no veining) and developes a distinctive pink throat as the fall approaches. I was back in that area this past fall and found this hybrid to be quite common in several of the larger bogs. All of these bogs are a mixture of leuco, rubra gulf/wherryi, psitt and alata. My guess is a 'SG' would be better found in the huge bogs (no longer in existance) in Baldwin Co. where they were exclusively leuco populations. 'Hurricane Creek White' (Perdido area)is such a plant but but differs in that it's flowers are the typical red. Discussions like this are good. What we have here that you guys in the UK and abroad do not is the experience of field study which helps greatly. Visiting a site many times through out the growing season and over several years teaches you a great deal. I find these plants to be very mutable, even individual clones not looking the same from year to year is typical. I imagine for those of you trying to build a collection that is correctly lables is frustrating.Cheers, Brooks Assuming John to be correct on this issue... and I see no reason not to (I trust you John ), then the cultivar is estabished under the earlier description quoted in the CP database: "This clone has yellow flowers & the pitchers entirely lack red pigment except before they open when flushed with salmon, & when senescing, and intermittentliy & sparsely inside the pitcher a few fine purple veins occur. The lids are 98% white with only a few green veins." That being the case, the later description published in CPN is invalid, 'Schnell's Ghost' is a single clone and quite possibly not one of us is growing it! Edited February 13, 2008 by Aidan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FredG Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 That being the case, the later description published in CPN is invalid, 'Schnell's Ghost' is a single clone and quite possibly not one of us is growing it! Wow ...... it only took 10 days to get that answer What are we saying here?The plant was registered with the wrong description? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sheila Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Fred you're just too impatient... These things take time if you want them done properly, 10 days was pretty good considering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FredG Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Fred you're just too impatient... Impatient? When you get to my age you'll realise..... it's not a matter of want a quick answer..... you NEED a quick answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike King Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 I can tell you that the 'Schnell's Ghost' plants were imported from Bruce Bednar in the states by Alan Hindle in the late 80s/ealrly 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FredG Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 I can tell you that the 'Schnell's Ghost' plants were imported from Bruce Bednar in the states by Alan Hindle in the late 80s/ealrly 90s. Sorry Mike, Plants labelled as Schnell's Ghost were ........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike King Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Sorry Mike,Plants labelled as Schnell's Ghost were ........ Meaning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny... Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 I've been hunting around lately, and succesfully found, and in a few day's own, the (hopefully) real deal.. It's Phil Wilson's L09 from Perdido Alabama.. It would be nice if anyone had a picture of this specific clone..it just help's with ehhhh..getting the picture! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sheila Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) Phil made the entry in the CPN that everyone is saying is incorrect, so it is as doubtful you have the real deal as it is everyone else. Edited February 14, 2008 by Sheila Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Jearrard Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Personally, I am happy to accept that the Bruce Bednar clone is the same plant as the one named and distributed by Martin Cheek, who got it from Steve Clemesha, who got it unflowered from Don Schnell, and is the single clone that properly carries the name 'Schnells Ghost'. When the name was registered, a description was also published. Quite understandably, the people involved at the time did not realise that the name had already been validly published by Martin, and so they published it again, with a slightly different description. Martins description was published earlier, and takes priority, the CPN description (whatever its merits may be) is redundant and misleading. The principle in nomenclature is that the earliest validly published description is the one that matters. It defines the plant that the name is applied to, for all time. If you want a name that refers to all yellow flowered clones of leuco, then I suggest S.leucophylla Yellow Flowered Group. It is clear that there are also a number of clones with yellow flowers that are historically significant, or come from known locations, or are outstanding, and deserve to be named as cultivars, otherwise they will float around for years under a number of different informal names, simply adding to the confusion. Sarracenia 'Obfuscation' anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FredG Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) Meaning? Meaning is it the plant originally collected by Donald Schnell during the summer of 1972? The one sent to Steven Clemesha. Bruce Bednar in the USA, received a plant from Clemesha but is that the same one? Alan Hindle received plants from Bruce Bodnar and we have a description from that. But it doesn't match the current plants Edited February 14, 2008 by FredG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike King Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Personally, I am happy to accept that the Bruce Bednar clone is the same plant as the one named and distributed by Martin Cheek, who got it from Steve Clemesha, who got it unflowered from Don Schnell, and is the single clone that properly carries the name 'Schnells Ghost'.When the name was registered, a description was also published. Quite understandably, the people involved at the time did not realise that the name had already been validly published by Martin, and so they published it again, with a slightly different description. Martins description was published earlier, and takes priority, the CPN description (whatever its merits may be) is redundant and misleading. The principle in nomenclature is that the earliest validly published description is the one that matters. It defines the plant that the name is applied to, for all time. If you want a name that refers to all yellow flowered clones of leuco, then I suggest S.leucophylla Yellow Flowered Group. It is clear that there are also a number of clones with yellow flowers that are historically significant, or come from known locations, or are outstanding, and deserve to be named as cultivars, otherwise they will float around for years under a number of different informal names, simply adding to the confusion. Sarracenia 'Obfuscation' anyone? Hi John, Thanks for clearing this up. The 'Bruce Bednar clone' came from an Australian import that Alan Hindle made (L3 on my growlist) and he got it to me in 1993 so that ties in with Steve Clemesha connection. I believe Alan Hindle had made an import directly to the USA as he was getting plants from Bruce Bednar and others prior to that time. I obtained a 'Schnell's Ghost' from Alistair Pearce the same year and the plants were identical. As for me, I was never happy with Phil's description as some of the other yellow flowered plants are clearly of hybrid origin (Brooks Garcia described the Citronelle site very well as a hybrid swarm). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike King Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Meaning is it the plant originally collected by Donald Schnell during the summer of 1972?The one sent to Steven Clemesha. Bruce Bednar in the USA, received a plant from Clemesha but is that the same one? Alan Hindle received plants from Bruce Bodnar and we have a description from that. But it doesn't match the current plants But it marries upto clones L3 and L4 perfectly as that was the original source. I know that the plant came from Australia (Alan Hindle informed me where it had just come from) as my original L3 needed to be 'synchronised' with northern hemisphere conditions when I received it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Mike - No one is querying the veracity of your sources. The problem now is that the plants do not apparently match the description that established the cultivar. Adrian's Russell Road plant is a much closer match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike King Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Mike - No one is querying the veracity of your sources. The problem now is that the plants do not apparently match the description that established the cultivar. Adrian's Russell Road plant is a much closer match. Hi Aidan, The Russell road plant is also in my collection. It has yellow flowers, but it is clearly a hybrid (goes pink in the throat on the autumn pitchers). The tall white plant that Adrian got from me (Bednar) is the real McCoy. Just to show how 'white' a yellow flowered plant can be, here is a plant below with yellow flowers, but is not the original 'Schnell's Ghost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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