jimfoxy Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 These were shots I took back at the end of November. I just want to check if it is normal for Schnell's Ghost to go this red at the end of the season? This one was a small pitcher: Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 'Schnell's Ghost' is not a single clone. The cultivar description is general enough so as to include many, largely white, yellow flowered plants. "I am registering the cultivar name Sarracenia leucophylla ‘Schnell’s Ghost’, which should be applied to all clones of the species with yellow flowers and predominantly white coloured lids and upper pitchers. Since seed from self-pollinated individuals of this clone breed true (and presumably between different clones of this cultivar), Sarracenia leucophylla ‘Schnell’s Ghost’ may be propagated both asexually from cuttings and sexually from seed, as long as the cultivar characters are maintained." There appears to be some confusion... The above text is extracted from the description and this from the CP database which is taken from a catalogue: "This clone has yellow flowers & the pitchers entirely lack red pigment except before they open when flushed with salmon, & when senescing, and intermittentliy & sparsely inside the pitcher a few fine purple veins occur. The lids are 98% white with only a few green veins." Your plant does not appear to meet the description on the basis of venation in the hood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimfoxy Posted February 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 Mmmm... another grey area I seem to have stumbled across, then. Yes, there is too much venation to agree with that description. Thanks for the info, Aidan, I will keep my eye on this one. I bought it from Essex Carnivorous Plants (Mark Haslett) as 'Schnell's Ghost'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 The registrar might have deemed that any yellow flowered whitish leuco can be called 'Schnell's Ghost', but he still had one clone he had in mind when he registered it. And consequently there is one clone which is probably the 'original' SC. At some point someone must have owned that pink throated leuco and thought 'I can call this Schnell's Ghost too' and started distributing it. The 'any similar plant can be called cultivar x' system is deeply deeply flawed in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 The description was deliberately written in such a way that a whole range of plants fit the bill. That's not a flaw of the system. It could have been written in a fashion that would have restricted it to a single clone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ada Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 The Russell road leucophylla clone is yellow flowered and does go pinkish. But sorry Jim it still doesn't look like your clone. I think this is where people need to do their homework and check photo's or just ask where the seller got their plant from originally. Just because something is "cheap" doesn't mean its the real thing,you really need to get plants from a good source.To be sure. Saying that though if it was seed grown,it could be a "throw back" to something schnells ghost came from originally. Ada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FredG Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 (edited) It's pretty simple. If it's a yellow flowered leucophylla and the lids are 98% white with only a few green veins. It's a Schnell's Ghost Edited February 3, 2008 by FredG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny... Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 I'm confronted with the same... My clone of Schnell's Ghost turns this pink colour at the end of the season as well.. I'll post some shot's.. This is the plant in the high season so to speak..(Right Plant..) no pink is present at all..i've not witnessed any pink prior to opening of the traps either.. And this is the same plant..late season..quite some pink present.. Jim, no attempt to hijack your thread..just thought to add something to compare.. This plant is Mike's L4..i've had it for two years now..it's believed to be the same as Mike's L3, which is a Bednar clone i believe.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FredG Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 My clone of Schnell's Ghost turns this pink colour at the end of the season as well.. According to the description, that plant is not a Schnell's Ghost. The lid is not 98% white with a few green veins at any time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 The description was deliberately written in such a way that a whole range of plants fit the bill. That's not a flaw of the system. It could have been written in a fashion that would have restricted it to a single clone. This thread wouldn't even exist if there was one single plant of 'Schnell's Ghost'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FredG Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 This thread wouldn't even exist if there was one single plant of 'Schnell's Ghost'. You really think that? We've already had a thread on 'fake' Eden Black The plants already shown bear no resemblence to the description........... It's the same situation given one clone or a multi clone description. If it doesn't fit that description it isn't one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 According to the description, that plant is not a Schnell's Ghost.The lid is not 98% white with a few green veins at any time. The full explanation is here: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cpn/Speci...30n1p11_14.html In this case I think the CP Database entry should be ignored. The original 'Schnell's Ghost' and "Bruce Bednar Clone" plants are one and the same, but as already noted the published description allows a range of plants to fit the bill. Rightly or wrongly, any yellow flowered clone in circulation is probably going to end up with the 'Schnell's Ghost' epithet attached to it sooner or later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FredG Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 In this case I think the CP Database entry should be ignored. What are we saying here? The plant was registered with the wrong description? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SarraceniaObssessed Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Jim, It appears you have an alata x leuco cross not a 'Schnell's Ghost.' 'SG" would not have that much veining in the hood and be more white. The pink at the edges is caused from the alata parantage. I have seen many such plants in the wild in stands where alata and leuco coexist. The yellow flower would be a dead give away. My guess is the flower on that plant is a pale orange or pale brick red not the butter yellow on a 'SG.' Sorry to bust your bubble. Nice plant though. Brooks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 What are we saying here?The plant was registered with the wrong description? The CP Database is very useful, but it should be remembered that it is the work of one (dedicated) individual and has no official standing. It's also not updated that often and Jan being a taxonomist, the contents reflect his opinion. In this case I'd say there is an error in the database and it should be updated to include the published description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimfoxy Posted February 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 It appears you have an alata x leuco cross not a 'Schnell's Ghost.' 'SG" would not have that much veining in the hood and be more white. The pink at the edges is caused from the alata parantage. Brooks, thanks for your input. The pink only appears with senescence. Otherwise it is very much like Danny's posted photos above (Danny - that's no hijack - that's constructive posting, thanks). Does that agree with the alata x leuco crosses you mention - are they only pink at the end of the season? I've only had the division a year or so and it has not flowered for me yet. Maybe this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny... Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 I still await it's first flower as well...but i'm pretty sure it will be yellow.. The fact that there is to much green in the lid, is possibly due to a lack of light, and possibly because it had to settle in after shipment from Mike's.. I have no reason to believe that it's anything else then SG..or otherwise said, i'll hang on to Mike's description..at least for now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-=Joel=- Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Here is my schnells ghost - not best picture http://www.jkcarnivores.pwp.blueyonder.co....%20Ghost%20.jpg Here is the bednar clone - taken late November http://www.jkcarnivores.pwp.blueyonder.co....%20Clone%20.jpg tried to use image tags but wasnt allowed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 tried to use image tags but wasnt allowed I think it's all the "%" characters in those huge file names causing the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Jim on Brooks' point, this is a leuco x alata which has pale leuco colour all summer then goes like this in autumn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ada Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Here's a pic of my SG,the tallest one,the russell rd one is right at the back. http://www.cpukforum.co.uk/uploader/user_u...Picture_051.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny... Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Well..what can i say here..Doubt start's creeping in.. This is a smashing plant for sure..fit's the description..and no pink present anywhere... I'll just have to wait and see how my clone will behave this season..perhaps it'll suprise me.. But it's for sure something else then this clone.. I'm up for a division Adrian..just let me know!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimfoxy Posted February 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 (edited) Those are lovely plants, Stephen and Adrian - thank you for the examples. Ref Phil Wilson's cultivar registration description on the ICPS website pointed to by Aidan. The pitcher hood in the second photo is, indeed, far from 98% white. So, in conclusion, my interpretation of that description is that all the photos posted or linked so far in this thread (other than Stephen's leuco x alata) could well be labelled 'Schnell's Ghost' so long as they have a yellow flower. I have just read the two references from that description to Sheridan, 1997 and Sheridan & Scholl, 1996 but, unfortunately, there is no further explanation into the yellow flowering forms other than suggesting two things: a) Red flowers may consist of red and yellow pigments. Yellow flowering forms may occur due to lack of the red pigment in the flower. b) Normally red flowering Sarracenia species can produce yellow flowering forms but no normally yellow flowering species (alata, minor, flava, oreophila) have been found to spontaneously produce red flowering forms. One thing for sure is that there is more than one legitimate 'Schnell's Ghost' clone out there. Edited February 3, 2008 by jimfoxy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike King Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 The 'Scnell's Ghost' plant that Danny and Jimfoxy has is the original clone as distributed by Alan Hindle some 15 years ago. For me, it was a bit of a shame ALL yellow flowered leucos came under this bracket as the Russel road plant, the Citronelle plant would be labelled the same cultivar.. My opinion on all these clones is that they are all not true leucos as they all show characterisics with Sarracenia alata. And yes, the original Alan Hindle plants go pink in the interior in autumn time too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sheila Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Donald Schnell shows a photo of the plant named 'schnells ghost' in his book and it is not like the plants we see here at all. The picture on page 200 is very like Adas plant and Schnell says 'there is no red in the pitcher either, the pale green veins making the white so prominent that the pitchers have a ghostly appearance. British growers seem taken by this and refer to the plant informally as "schnells ghost", which I take in good humour' The veins in the plants shown by Jim and Danny could hardly be described as pale, and the top of the plant certainly doesn't have a ghostly appearance. If these are the plants distributed by Alan Hindle as Schnells Ghost then Alan Hindles plant, can't have been the plant Schnell referred to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.