Highland Vs. Lowland

[flytrapcody]

Just wanted to see peoples views on which type of nep is better.

Thanks to all who submit answers.

Cody

Edited January 13, 2008 by flytrapcody

[glider14]

highland.... there are so many and so many shapes and colors! lowlanders have their advantages. but highlanders top them off for me :)

Alex

[Amar]

But what do you get when you cross a highland with a lowland?

[ifurita]

An Intermediate?

[Stefan P]

N. Bicalcarata and Nepenthes hookeriana make me think Lowland but then n. villosa makes me vote both

[tonyc]

Well, I have a lot of highlanders and intermediates but I'd love to have the space and temperatures to grow the likes of bicals, amps, raffs etc etc.

Which way to vote? I guess we all want what we can't have

Edited January 13, 2008 by tonyc

[Rob-Rah]

I don't know what you mean by "better"? Bigger? More colourful? More varied? Or do you mean more successful in cultivation?

Highlanders are easier, tend to be smaller plants with a good pitcher-to-plant-size ratio, and pitcher well when small. They perform well in cultivation.

Lowlanders generally need a lot more effort. Not just the heat. Most of them form very large plants. To get your 20" raff pitchers needs more than a terrarium or steamy windowsil. A bical with leaves three feet long is hard to accommodate. Add the dimension of getting the wet but not stagnant conditions at the high heat and another hurdle arrives.

I don't think any one sort of nep is "better" than others, but I doubt that many people have had the chance to actually properly see lowland neps really doing well ;-)

Best wishes,

[manders]

Well, I have a lot of highlanders and intermediates but I'd love to have the space and temperatures to grow the likes of bicals, amps, raffs etc etc.

Amps and Raffs will grow quite happily in highland conditions

[tonyc]

@ manders:

I've not tried growing amps or bicals but I've had a couple of raffs and they didn't do well for me at all :-( I've heard a rumour of ampullaria being found at highland altitudes in Papua New Guinea but I've no idea whether that's true or not.

Cheers,

T.

[manders]

@ manders:

I've not tried growing amps or bicals but I've had a couple of raffs and they didn't do well for me at all :-( I've heard a rumour of ampullaria being found at highland altitudes in Papua New Guinea but I've no idea whether that's true or not.

Cheers,

T.

I don't believe they have to originate from high altitude to be able to tolerate highland conditions, i've been growing two lowland ampularia forms for about 1 year with my highlanders, winter conditions min 8 degc at night and 20-22 daytime, and of course generally warmer in the summer. They are still growing, if some what slowly in the winter conditions, especially since i realized the limiting factor was light and moved them under a metal halide. The raff is doing ok too. In fact i've got most of my lowlanders in these same conditions.

Heres the Amps from the summer growing with the highlanders,

What seems to limit altitude distribution for many seems to suitable habitat and prey, and a few swamp dwelling lowlanders occur at high altitude when suitable swampy conditions occur, the high altitude ampularias in New Guinea are a case in point as are a few places were Mirabilis is found in swamps at higher altitude. Anyhow they seem to manage ok and its a lot simpler than building a huge terrarium

Edited January 13, 2008 by manders

[Dicon]

Amps and Raffs will grow quite happily in highland conditions

I find statements such as this a bit vague.

What exactly does grow quite happily actually mean in this context?

Are you saying that you can grow a 20" raff. pitcher in highland conditions or that the plants grow, just?

Many plants can be "grown" in less than perfect conditions but can it indeed be said that they thrive in such circumstances?

I think not.

If that were the case, then why do we try to perfect growing conditions for each individual species, paying particular attention to their individual quirks and wants?

How many times do we hear "it seems to grow happily but it has not pitchered yet" which is due to one seemingly minor factor that needs adjusting slightly.

I have been growing a N.hirsuta in lowland conditions where it grew and pitchered. This year I have kept it in the highland/intermediate section where it has produced about 15 very healthy looking leaves and not a single pitcher, in the wild this would eventually starve I guess.

I have said this before, but if one looks at the natural environment and "range" of an individual in the wild, at both extremes of its range, they all "grow quite happily" whilst in the midst of their range, they thrive and outside their range, they don't survive.

I for one would rather have a few really good thriving specimens than a shedload of sickly climbers not displaying their best attributes.

[agustin franco]

Hi Manders:

As i have said it before, especially with lowlanders, please apply the two year test. If your ampullaria plant can survive 2 winters under highland conditions, then you have a valid point. One year IMO is not enough to judge a plant's growth patterns. Artificial heating during the day in winter as well as artificial lighting IMO is cheating by the way!, because you are not exposing your plants to a natural environment, but to a man-made one.

Gus

Edited January 14, 2008 by agustin franco

[manders]

Ok, ill post the same post again in another year, lol.

By the way my raff has grown from 2cm to 2ft and never seen a lowland environment!

What on earth do you mean by man made environment? are you serious, there are NO tropical plants that will grow in the UK without a man made environment. (ok maybe someone can think of an example, but i doubt it)

Dicon,

My hirsuta pitchered ok

The amp has grown several pitchers and now is growing basal rosette pitchers, the only thing that stopped it growing was lack of light in winter.

[flycatchers]

Hi Manders:

As i have said it before, especially with lowlanders, please apply the two year test. If your ampullaria plant can survive 2 winters under highland conditions, then you have a valid point. One year IMO is not enough to judge a plant's growth patterns. Artificial heating during the day in winter as well as artificial lighting IMO is cheating by the way!, because you are not exposing your plants to a natural environment, but to a man-made one.

Gus

I agree with Gus on this.

My various lowland Neps growing in highland conditions since 1999 did very well for the first few years. Them stopped pitchering, and growing and in some cases living

I personally feel that they can tolerate quite a bit of abuse but become weaker over a period of time. I don't regret trying but the final conclusion is not surprising. Will never stop experimenting though!

cheers

bill

[manders]

I agree with Gus on this.

My various lowland Neps growing in highland conditions since 1999 did very well for the first few years. Them stopped pitchering, and growing and in some cases living

I personally feel that they can tolerate quite a bit of abuse but become weaker over a period of time. I don't regret trying but the final conclusion is not surprising. Will never stop experimenting though!

cheers

bill

You may well be right in the long term, however the too oldest lowlanders i have at the moment, a truncata and a giant refflesiana, are both 5 years old, and have both been grown after deflasking to large plants, ie from 2cm to 2-3 feet diameter. They are not showing any signs of weakening or slowing down yet...

[johnnyfrye]

Neither. I have never liked any species of nep, they just don't appeal to me. I prefer Drosera or pings!

[Dicon]

What on earth do you mean by man made environment? are you serious, there are NO tropical plants that will grow in the UK without a man made environment. (ok maybe someone can think of an example, but i doubt it)

Sorry Gus,

I ag agr ..!!..agree with Manders here!

Once you provide a greenhouse or shade house or watering can; you've lost that argument!

However, Gus I do agree with long term evidence!

Show me a picture of the famous window cill hamata aged 13 and 3/4 and I'll drink the contents of mine's pitchers (SE Asian window cills don't count!)

[manders]

Sorry Gus,

I ag agr ..!!..agree with Manders here!

Once you provide a greenhouse or shade house or watering can; you've lost that argument!

However, Gus I do agree with long term evidence!

Show me a picture of the famous window cill hamata aged 13 and 3/4 and I'll drink the contents of mine's pitchers (SE Asian window cills don't count!)

How long is long term, does 5 years count or is 6 or 7 finally considered proof?

By the way what the #@@ heck has Hamata on a windowsill got to do with lowlanders in highland conditions, its getting all twilight zone-ish.

Here's a lowlander that hasn't seen lowland conditions in 5 or 6 years. How long do i have to wait before it dies?

Heres another, taken of a (5-6 year old plant) Raff pitcher that has never seen Lowland conditions

And just for variety a Mindanoensis pitcher, but i guess thats cheating as its only been growing highland conditions for 3 years.

So whats the criteria guys 2 years or what, make your minds up!

Edited January 14, 2008 by manders

[phissionkorps]

I think two years is a little ridiculous. Most plants I've put in adverse conditions, if they're going to decline, do so either immediately or shortly thereafter. I've said this many times on many forums....a plant is simply not going to grow great for say 18 months, then just up and die. There's nothing magical about "2 years" where if the plant makes it past the 2 year mark, ensures its survival indefinitely thereafter. First it was 6 months for different conditions, then it was a year, now its two. I see the deadline keeps getting extended for some reason

The truncata doesn't really help prove anything IMO, since both "highland" and "lowland" forms grow with roughly the same exact vigor in both conditions IME.

Regardless, I'm definitely going to have to side with Manders here based on evidence of many people growing highlanders in lowland conditions and vice versa. The famed Capslock has had an ampullaria in perfect highland conditions (down to the 40s IIRC) for quite a long time. Thing looks great. Here's a thorelii giant tiger he was growing in the same conditions as it came to me (sorry for the bad photo quality):

One of the best root structures I've seen too.

There's no "this can and can't be done" in nep culture. There's always a clone or seedling etc that is more forgiving than others. Look at elgecko's windowsill hamata that has been growing with no special requirements whatsoever, with humidity sometimes down to the 30s or 40s

Edited January 15, 2008 by phissionkorps

[Dicon]

ooh Manders, you're magnificent when you're angry!

[agustin franco]

Hi Manders: Truncata like many phillippino species display atypical growth patterns.

In other words, Truncatas can grow in cold and heat being a lowlander just like the ventricosas which like more heat than most highlanders found under identical altitudes elsewhere. Now you want to try the real thing. How about a northiana and bicalcarata side by side under highland conditions, then you've made your point.

Phissionkorps: I know that most things i say don't make sense to you, but the more experience one gets growing these plants, the longer they last on one's hands.

I had a rowanae for two years under highland conditions and it died on its second birthday. I had a rafflesiana under highland conditions and still killed it in 8 months.

Sure, if you want to kill a nepenthes quick, easy don't give them any light at all and it's dead in 9 days, so I would kindly encourage you to make more constructive criticism and abstain from any negative comments. the cp community in general would be very appreciative.

Gus

Edited January 16, 2008 by agustin franco

[-=Joel=-]

I tried and failed to grow my bicalcarata out in the greenhouse over winter. I brought it in where it has now began to recover :)

[manders]

How about a northiana and bicalcarata side by side under highland conditions, then you've made your point.

That's were your entirely wrong, my original point was clearly made about Ampullarias and Rafflesianas. I also made the point that some lowlanders definitaley don't like cooler (and associated less humid) conditions, Sumatrana appears to be one, as is Globosa, Papuana etc, at least for me. I take the point that your Rafflesiana only lasted 8 months, sorry for that but mine has lasted 5 years, maybe we have different clones or just different conditions. Funnily enough my ventricosa doesn't do well in my highland conditons, and seems to prefer hotter temps and more humidity than its getting at the moment.

Temperature is only one factor, allong with light, water, food supply, and lack of competition. Ampullarias have been found at high altitudes, probably because other factors compensate for the slower growth rate under cool conditions AND they are adaptable to temperature. Rafflesianas have also been found at higher altitudes. As have a number of other lowlanders, these clearly have a some adaptability to temperature. As far as i know, Bicals have only been found close to sea level, so would not be good candidates for growing cool.

I hope that is now clear.

There is some room for legitimate discussion as to whether lowlanders that are found at higher elevations are especially adapted to grow at higher altitudes, such as Truncata, Ampullaria, Rafflesiana, Mirabilis and some others, or have just found a particular niche they like and are essentially the same plants as grow lower down. In my view, i tend to follow the latter train of thought.

[agustin franco]

Hi Manders:

What you just described regarding plants found at higher altitudes is what i have been preaching for the past 2 years. Sure if you find a aristolochioides growing at 1300 metres would be lovely, because it may take hotter temperatures or a bicalcarata found at 1000 metres, it would be lovely to grow.

The main point of my argument is that most of the lowland plants around don't like cold weather. Also, we tend to make many assumptions based on 1 or 2 plants. Manders, if you need to prove your point you will need at least 10-20 rafflesianas growing side by side under highland conditions and then we'll check how many survive U.K winters.

I am not arguing that your plant survived for 5 years, but then again, we have many factors we are not considering such as how pure is your rafflesiana. Even if it looks like rafflesiana, we don't know the whole gene content of the plant to say they may have another species mixed with it, and to make the story short, please write or consult to major commercial growers and ask them why they have lowland and highland greenhouses on separate geographical areas?, or why they grow the highland nepenthes separate from the lowlands?. I am sure they'll have a logical explanation: They need completely different growing conditions!. As simple as that.

I am very much aware of species like mirabilis, reinwardtianas, veitchiis that are found at a wide range of altitudes and they are more tolerant to suboptimal environmental conditions in general, but we need to draw the line somewhere.

Cheers,

Gus

[manders]

Hi Manders:

What you just described regarding plants found at higher altitudes is what i have been preaching for the past 2 years. Sure if you find a aristolochioides growing at 1300 metres would be lovely, because it may take hotter temperatures or a bicalcarata found at 1000 metres, it would be lovely to grow.

The main point of my argument is that most of the lowland plants around don't like cold weather. Also, we tend to make many assumptions based on 1 or 2 plants. Manders, if you need to prove your point you will need at least 10-20 rafflesianas growing side by side under highland conditions and then we'll check how many survive U.K winters.

I am not arguing that your plant survived for 5 years, but then again, we have many factors we are not considering such as how pure is your rafflesiana. Even if it looks like rafflesiana, we don't know the whole gene content of the plant to say they may have another species mixed with it, and to make the story short, please write or consult to major commercial growers and ask them why they have lowland and highland greenhouses on separate geographical areas?, or why they grow the highland nepenthes separate from the lowlands?. I am sure they'll have a logical explanation: They need completely different growing conditions!. As simple as that.

I am very much aware of species like mirabilis, reinwardtianas, veitchiis that are found at a wide range of altitudes and they are more tolerant to suboptimal environmental conditions in general, but we need to draw the line somewhere.

Cheers,

Gus

I still think your missing the point, and by survive the winter did you leave yours outside unprotected? that would help to explain why its dead.

Ok lets clear this up, exactly what conditions did your rafflesiana get?

There is no nepenthes, highland or lowland, that would survive a UK winter, please clarify what you mean and then we might learn something rather than talking in riddles.

Of course commercial growers try to grow plants in ideal conditions otherwise they wouldn't be very commercial would they? Its blindingly obvious a lowland plant will grow way faster in hot temperatures, so apart from stating the obvious, whats your point?

PS im not a commercial grower therefore speed of growth isn't an issue, especially if i don't need to build damm great terrarium to accomodate a 4ft diameter, lowland plant...

Edited January 16, 2008 by manders