Cheap Hamata

[colinliew]

cp addict, that is not the question at all. That is a point Mr. Cantley raised, and I am fully inclined to agree.

What I was addressing was the main issue of this thread, the one that's been the source of the argument - whether or not kltower is advertising for MT, and whether or not that is unfair to other commercial growers.

I am not entirely sure how the 'question' transformed from one of a simple announcement of a price reduction to a debate on the most important factor when buying a plant, but I don't believe that should be at the heart of the matter.

Colin

[Guest CPer Kevin]

Hey,

Nice plants guys! Tim I am definetly in! I will contact you via e-mail, or whatever. I am deeply interested in N. hamata.

Kevin

[chesara]

Well Hamata is an amazing plant thay is for sure i must addmit that i do prefer Joachim,s plant as the peristome is a better colour.I think when the order is being done i might be tempted.

Bye for now Julian 8)

[Tim]

Joachim's plant is too beautiful for words! Who would have thought such a plant even existed?

[Guest nep izumiae]

Hey Joachim, how long did it take your hamata to achieve such a large size?.

Another comment i wanted to make is that even though Joachim's plant looks larger and more colorful than Rob Cantley's, they all come from the same cross, if i am not mistaken, so maybe Rob would want to start selecting the preferred clones in the not so distant future.

[Odysseus]

Earlier in this thread it mentions Joachim's plant as a Clone from Wistuba. Is that true? And is the color difference due to light value between photo's? I have never seen the pitcher's of the hamata in life and the Uppers always seem precisely the same in all pics. So, are the lower pitchers any different, such as a different peristome color between clones?

If so, does MT have those clones available at the price? Because I agree, Joachim's was certainly awesome

[swords]

Here's a thread discussing the clones of N. hamata, which was first introduced to modern cultivation by Malesiana Tropicals in 1997. Chi'en Lee does chime in to this discussion later on in the replies, unfortunately the topic was sent offtrack near the end...

http://www.petflytrap.com/cgi-bin/ib312/ik...t=ST;f=7;t=9216

[kltower]

Dear All,

If you have read the thread given above by Josh Cook, you will come to the conclusion that N. hamata you buy elsewhere most probably comes from MT.

As far as I know, many (all?) of the N. hamata plants sold by Andreas during the past few years originated from Malesiana Tropicals as well, since many plants were purchased by him from MT.  However I'm not sure if Andreas has also been growing and propagating plants from other sources.  Also, AFAIK nearly all of the N. hamata plants being circulated in the US orginate at some point or other from the MT stock.  These plants come from a single seed collection made in Central Sulawesi in 1996 and are composed of 18 different sibling clones.

Ch'ien Lee

Borneo Exotics has recently been releasing N. hamata.  Until then all my plants have been from Malesiana.

Tony Paroubek

BE's 2 clones came to us from a TC lab in the US under license.  I'm not at liberty to say much more than that other than so far as I know the seeds originated from the same collection referred to by Ch'ien, so possibly even the parent plant is the same as all the other clones in circulation.

Rob Cantley

Cheers

Choong

[swords]

Now it is up to the nurseries (and us hobbyists) to grow these specific 18 clones out. Then each clone can be sexed and notorized for their peristome charachteristics and coloration.

Until this lengthy process comes full circle, it'll likely be russian roulette as to which exact persitome, sex or color type you may get.

[Odysseus]

Thus, in short. You never know what color of lower pitcher peristome you could get off the clones from MT. But, you will of course get a great looking Hamata with those fierce upper pitchers! That's enough guarantee for me!

Perhaps though...what if the Wistuba Hamatas are consistent? Such as Joachim's. Any stats on similar peristomes as his plant's? Would you say most likely, or not highly likely but probable?

Joachim -

Your picture has become an object of lust. Anything specific you have done? Perchance, extra than normal wattage to bring out that almost purple peristome? :) As for myself, I'd prefer a Hamata like yours.

[swords]

It will be possible to get a plant "just like Joachims" if you were to buy one of each of Wistuba's N. hamata clones (I think he has 3 different ones and does offer a deal on people to buy all three). The problem is, none of us know which clone # we have.

The upper pitchers of each clone will likely be slightly different from each other as the lowers are. Mine will likely have angular pitchers, with an ovate mouth and a 42-45 teeth. While Joachims uppers will likely be more cylindrical, with an orbiculate mouth and fewer teeth.

Also, the coloration of Joachims pitcher does not look like it had developed fully at the time of the photo. The pitchers will "color up" after they open fully, their peristomes generally turn dark purple/black after a week or so.

[Odysseus]

oh! That is interesting. if that's true about Joachim's Hamata. Than it would in fact not matter! Even if I had a clone from Wistuba that created that color of peristome, it would indefinitely turn dark purple or black! Created the need to find it unimportant. At least short lived.

Thanks Josh for doing that research!

[swords]

There are people searching for a red form of N. hamata. In that post I linked to, Tony from Exotic Plants Plus shows a picture of what he though were "red" forms that had developed in his nursery. Unfortunately they actually turn purple/black as they mature. I was all set to buy one but Tony stopped me and told me the color doesn't holdup as the plants age.

Anyone that does find a "N. hamata Red", one that stays a true reddish color until pitcher decay will have many people clammoring for cuttings (myself included)! But it will have to come from a new collection of seed if it's true that there are only 18 specific clones of N. hamata available.

[Joachim]

Hi,

concerning Rob's comments on different quality of plants originating from different nurseries I want to add that everyone has to make his own decision which points are more and which are less important. Quality of plants for sure is one very important factor but service, availabilty, delivery times and some more might be as important. A very important factor for me is the introduction of new species or clones into cultivation by a nursery.

Reading through this thread I have to state that experiences with the same nursery may vary and especially the judgment of quality of plants is not objective at all. I.e. I've seen many pictures of 'great' plants on the web which just look horrible in my eyes. So seeing and touching a plant with my own hands tells me much more than the opinions other growers have.

The N. hamata I'm growing originates from Andreas Wistuba and was produced by himself in TC. So it isn't originating from MT as Ch'ien stated. I don't know where Andreas obtained this clone.

The peristome colour has not changed much in the last weeks, but the lid has darkened a little bit as can be seen from a picture taken today:

Tony has posted some pics of his N. hamata originating from MT at PFT:

http://www.petflytrap.com/cgi-bin/ib312/ik...=7;t=9268;st=20 http://www.exoticplantsplus.com/temppics/Nham1.jpg

and

http://www.exoticplantsplus.com/temppics/nham2.jpg

which looks considerably different from Josh's plant.

Some information concerning my N. hamata can be found at my homepage http://home.arcor.de/j.danz/N_hamata_f.html . I'm growing N. hamata for about 18 months now in typical highland conditions with quite high humidty and fertilize it regularly.

Cheers Joachim

[Borneo]

Joachim,

That is definitely a different clone to the ones we have. Much redder. I have contacted Ch'ien about this and he thinks that there was only the one collection of seed made in 1997 so probably Andreas' clones come from this collection also.

By the way, regarding colorations, they do tend to deepen as the plants mature, the juvenile plant I posted a photo of above is actually only 5cm in diameter and is of the same clone as the plant in my avatar, so it'll turn nearly black later. Incidentally, I'll be visiting our highland nursery tomorrow where I hear there's a new N. hamata pitcher opened up that's wowing the staff there. I'll take a photo if it turns out to be special.

[Tony]

The second link Joachim posted doesn't appear to be working so here is the picture. The new pitcher on the right hasn't entirely inflated it's peristome but I found it interesting as the teeth are distinctly longer compared to the adjacent pitcher which is 4 pitchers older.

In another conversation there was a discussion on teeth count. I did some counting on this clone and found the count fairly consistent all the way from the oldest 8cm pitchers to the newly opened one. The count was in the 41-43 range. I haven't counted any others yet but it would be interesting to see if different clones can be sorted by teeth count.

One last picture of one clone from Malesiana which when young is mostly green with some faint black veins. When it matures and under very bright light will get a flush of color instead of the spotted pattern.

[SydneyNeps]

It's interesting to talk about variability... Whilst seed-grown plants obviously have genetic and physical differences, there can be interesting things happen even in genetically "identical" tissue cultured material.

I have a batch of plants I got ex vitro from Malesiana. It has been interesting watching them develop, as, even though they're genetically identical from the same parent material, there are some differences. For example...

Tentaculata: the leaves on most of the plants have gone burgundy in strong light, except for 2 plants which have remained bright green.

Inermis: the upper half of the pitchers on all plants bar one have gone red, with one producing pure green pitchers.

Hamata: All have green leaves, except for one plant whose leaves have a strong burgundy coloration. Another plant is a mutant, producing oversized pitchers on thin, waxy, spiralled leaves. It will be interesting to see if this mutation continues.

Even in humans, identical twins share the same DNA, but can show interesting differences. So there's bound to be variation even in identical TC material (just makes the whole thing more confusing, doesn't it?).

Hamish

[Tony]

Hi Hamish,

I don't think what you are seeing is variation in genetically identical TC material. Most Malesiana plants are comprised of a mix of various clones. It can be anywhere from 3-15 different clones I have been told.

[SydneyNeps]

Ah OK Tony, that would explain it. It also gives me a reason to hang onto the plants I haven't sold off, as I could have male and female plants in the same batch, which would be great for breeding purposes. I had assumed they would be from the same culture, and there wouldn't be any point in keeping more than one of each. Now I know better. I'd much rather breed species than hybrids.

Hamish

[Borneo]

I was going to point out the same thing as Tony but he beat me to it.

Since the viability of seeds is not usually known, most commercial labs probably sow as many seeds of a new rare species in sterile culture as their capacity allows. Later, after germination occurs, they will randomly select a bumber of clones to propagate - perhaps between 3 and 15 as Tony said. These will remain in the lab for some time as they are multiplied up. The excess individuals will be quickly planted out and will therefore be the first to ht the market. Hence Hamish, the plants you refer to may even be all unique individuals, if they were amongst the first to be released by that particular nursery.

[agustin franco]

Hi all:

I was reading an article in which referred Chi'en Lee as one of the first persons to collect N. hamata's seeds in 1996. What is not clear is how many sites he collected these from and are all these seeds from different altitutes or different mountains.

I guess there should be more variation between hamatas found at 1400 metres and those found 2500 metres than between those found at 1400 metres and 1500 metres. Just the relative physical distance between these two types increases the chances for genetic variation. Has anybody actually compared hamatas grown at different altitutes?

I would not be surprised either if the hamatas found at higher altitudes need to be grown like villosas and the hamatas found at lower altitudes would prefer conditions such as those like ventricosa. Well, it is just a hypothesis.

[SydneyNeps]

Gus,

I would hazard a guess that cultural requirements, whilst influenced by the altitude at which a particular plant grows, would be more strongly influenced by its species requirements. Whilst reported to be found at similar altitudes to villosa, I woud think that even hamata collected at such high altitudes would grow successfully in the same conditions at their lower brothers and sisters, where villosa would still require montane conditions.

For example, alata and veitchii can be found in a huge range of altitudes, but just about all of them can be grown as intermediates. Try that with villosa and it will surely die in time.

Also, physical proximity is linked to location, rather than altitude. Two plants at the same altitude on either side of a mountain are less likely to be related to two plants growing at the top and bottom of a cliff - big altitudinal difference, but as the crow flies, not a huge distance. I have no idea of the pollinators of various Nepenthes, but one would imagine that their travelling habits of pollinators and seed distrubtors would have an influence as well. If the distributors are birds, large distances can be involved in seed dispersion. Has anyone done any thorough studies on this???

Cheers, Hamish

[agustin franco]

Hi Hamish:

Happy new year!!.

Regarding the theories of species requirements, well it it not as clear as one would like it to be!. If all the alatas and Veitchiis were to be grown at all types of altitudes, then why is there veitchii highland and veitchii lowland?, unless they are two separate species. Same with Truncatas. Perhaps people who grow both types can shed some light about the temperature and other cultural requirements. If there is variation in the pitcher colour and teeth size of these plants, we can't expect them to behave in exactly the same way. Although i agree that hamatas are well-known highlanders, it would be interesting to see how well they'd grow if one were to change the night time temperatures from let's say 15 degrees Celsius to 4 or 8? and if those found at 1400 metres would do as well in these low temperatures as those found at 2500 metres?. I guess that'd be a nice study.

Gus

[SydneyNeps]

Hiya Gus,

I hope you sorted out those mixed-up plants, and that they're growing well.

You've raised a couple of interesting points..

I doubt that plants would do as well in conditions outside the conditions of their habitat. It would also depend on the particular species, and it might have something to do with the degree of specialisation of the species, the range of the altitudinal spread etc.

As you know, I grow all my plants outside, including both highland and lowland veitchii. Winter cold certainly didn't kill my lowland veitchii, and the summer heat doesn't bother the highland varieties. The lowlanders do stop growing in the winter months (but the highlanders don't grow much faster), or they grow leaves but not pitchers.

I also grow a variety of lowland plants outside, which have survived an entire winter, such as rafflesiana and truncata. They have gone through nights of 4C without fuss. This summer, I've added a bicalcarata, which has coped with fluctuating humidity very well. I'm tempted to keep it outdoors during winter to see if it survives, but as I only have the one, I'm not quite sure if I'm brave enough...However, as a general rule, you can grow most lowland plants in highland environments, but not so many highlanders in lowland environments.

As for whether dropping night temps from 15 to 4 degrees C, in my experience, it doesn't make much difference, it's the amount of light and daytime temps that make the difference.

Given that particular plants can grow and flower outside their altitudinal affinity, it probably has something to do with germination and juvenile plant requirements which would be much stricter than for a more mature plant. But even that would be an interesting point to test.

[agustin franco]

Dear Hamish:

Certainly some of us have learned a lot from Joel (Neps aroud the house). He has been a sort of a pioneer in experimenting with neps temperatures and growing conditions with a large variety of plants.

Regarding your points, Well for starters, the temperature in Sydney Australia accomodates most highland species almost all year round, except from Dec-March where daytime temps go above 36 C and nightime temperatures no lower than 22 C. Therefore, the highland neps should be well adjusted most of the time and can tolerate this temporary lowland conditions. Therefore, Since the plants are easily adjusted to our weather, I would not expect them to accelerate growth in winter time, because despite the fact that temperatures at night can be as low as 3-4 C in some places, overall the day time temperatures remain constant most of the time.

Regarding your lowlands, well the examples you've mentioned are of atypical lowlanders: Rafflesiana, Truncata, Campanulata, adnata. Although these are better grown as lowlanders, they can tolerate the cold, Word of caution: it does not mean they'll thrive in cold, just tolerate it. Maybe that's why yours survive our winter. But as you said it before, if you'd try to grow Bicalcarata, ampullaria, albomarginata and few other true lowlanders outside , my guess is that you wouldn't be so lucky!!.

Another point i was trying to make is that if one could grow all highlanders with just a drop of temperature and, as suggested by some, minor differences in the degree of coldness wouldn't have an effect on the plant in question, then why is it that those as villosa, lamii, do really need colder temperatures at night as opposed to those like burbidgeae or sanguinea?.

I'd love to generalize the growing conditions of all my neps, and to some extent i am still experimenting to achieve such goal, but i guess it may not be as easy as i would like it to be!.

Gus