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Ruben Resendiz

P.moranensis, P. zecheri, P. orquidioides & U. petersoni

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:D:D

We're again on the roads Fernando Rivadavia and me.

So this is the Photos from our new trip in the state of Guerrero.

In the First day

We go to Tlatauquitepec Between Chilapa an Tlapa, we go from the south part of this point to the mountains Between Tlatauquitepec - Tlacoapa, in state of Guerrero and we found to species of Pings

Pinguiula Moranensis

Pmor.JPG

And Pinguicula Orquidioides

Porqui.JPG

Fernando in front of P orquidioides

FerPorqui.JPG

The bad Thing in this trip was in that place exists some population of P. heterophylla and we need to return for gasoline and we miss this beautiful plants in that habitat

Lovely Orchid in the first day Epidendrum falcatum

Efalcatum.JPG

In the second Day

We sleep in a city call Atoyac (were the water born), and we go to the North-east trail to Chilpancigo, This are the best view in Mexico that I have, Is really beautiful this view and this mountains, the only problem with this trail is a little dangerous and of course we take the chance to enter

and of Course this is the first photo Fernando in front of a Ping zecheri (passing Puerto de Gallo)

FerPzecheri.JPG

Ping zecheri

Pzecheri.JPG

We move to cost elevation to 3200 mts and in this point fer is trying to find Utricularia petersoniae, and YES we find this beautifull plant, but I'll prefer let Fernando posts his Photos for this plant, in this moment I only post this Photo Fernando in front of the habitat of U. petersoniae

FerUtric.JPG

We move to that place and in some KM ahead we found P. moranensis maybe this plant is known like P. moranensis Puerto de Gallo

PmorPuerto.JPG

Of course other Orchid in the trail I still dont know what kind of type is, so if you know please let me know (Is some type of Dichaea)

Orquid.JPG

You know when we stay in Atoyac, I ask to the people how much time we need to cross this road and the people said to me about 10 Hours I cant believe and I laugth, aprox 200 Km from 10 hours not it cannot be.

Really I pass throuth this road driving about 10 Hours is so difficul but the prices are so good.

I hope you enjoy this trip in photos like we enjoy in the field.

Wait for Fernando's Photos

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Hi guys!

What a great weekend, I'm so glad to be back in Mexico seeing Pings with Ruben! Ed Read, where are you?!?! :):) Hopefully Noah & Forbes can meet up with us next weekend.

Ruben did almost all the driving including the ~150km of winding dirt roads full of holes, mud & rocks from the coast all the way to 3200m altitude and then down to Chilpancingo -- tiresome even for me as a passenger! But certainly worth it, as Ruben said!

Between ~2250-2400m we saw great populations of flowering P.zecheri -- or maybe I should call them P.moranensis "large flower". Really guys, this plant does NOT deserve species status. Ruben & I agreed that, considering the wide morphological variation observed in P.moranensis, having a larger flower is not sufficient to separate a species. Or else we'd have 20 different species emerging from this complex, all with very poorly defined borders. Zamudio himself mentions in his PhD thesis that there are no clear borders between P.moranensis & P.zecheri. So from now on, I'll just refer to this plant as P.moranensis "large flower", hehehe!

Anyways, P.moranensis/ zecheri presented many interesting flower variations. Colors varied from dark purple to pink. We even saw one with a light-pink, almost white flower. White and purple marks around the throat varied a lot too. The petal lobes varied in size and also in shape (narrower or rounder). I'm not sure, but these might be the first pics of P.moranensis/zecheri in the wild...

As for U.petersoniae, I am sure these are the first pics of this species in the wild! :) There were only 3-4 known collections of this species, all from the same area. We found the tiny rounded leaves growing in mosses on rocks by a little waterfall at 2940m. There were some very young flower scapes, but no flowers -- sorry! Pics soon...

And the day before we also saw P.orchidioides at 2470m -- Noah & Forbes beat Ruben & I by a few days in the publication of the first pics of wild P.orchidioides in flower, hehehe! (Well, I'm sure Hans Luhrs and all who were with him last year here in Mexico have pics of this and many other cool Pings in flowers -- it's just a pity they don't put them up on the web anywhere...) We also saw the elongated stolons and loads of baby plants growing around the mother plants.

We also saw 3 populations of P.moranensis and one is worth mentioning: the one closest to P.orchidioides (about 30km away). The rosettes were typical P.moranensis, maybe a little smaller and more compact than usual. Curiously however, the flowering parts were nearly IDENTICAL to those of P.orchidioides! The flowers scapes were red and the flowers equal in color and shape. Just the spur wasn't as thin and long in P.moranensis maybe.

So is this a case of convergent evolution to take advantage of the same pollinator or is it a sign of hybrid "blood" in that population? Could P.moranensis have hybridized with P.orchidioides and then in subsequent generations the most apt characters of both species were selected (leaves of P.moranensis & flowering parts of P.orchidioides)?

Best Wishes,

Fernando Rivadavia

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Between ~2250-2400m we saw great populations of flowering P.zecheri -- or maybe I should call them P.moranensis "large flower". Really guys, this plant does NOT deserve species status. Ruben & I agreed that, considering the wide morphological variation observed in P.moranensis, having a larger flower is not sufficient to separate a species. Or else we'd have 20 different species emerging from this complex, all with very poorly defined borders. Zamudio himself mentions in his PhD thesis that there are no clear borders between P.moranensis & P.zecheri. So from now on, I'll just refer to this plant as P.moranensis "large flower", hehehe!

I agree, P. zecheri is not a good species at all. There are only few differences in leaf-shape and the leaves of P. zecheri maybe a bit more veined but regarding the large variation of P. moranensis P. zecheri is nothing than one of this.

I'm not sure, but these might be the first pics of P.moranensis/zecheri in the wild...

Indeed!

And the day before we also saw P.orchidioides at 2470m -- Noah & Forbes beat Ruben & I by a few days in the publication of the first pics of wild P.orchidioides in flower, hehehe! (Well, I'm sure Hans Luhrs and all who were with him last year here in Mexico have pics of this and many other cool Pings in flowers -- it's just a pity they don't put them up on the web anywhere...) We also saw the elongated stolons and loads of baby plants growing around the mother plants.

I had the chance to visit Oliver who was with Hans last year and take a look at some of their photos. As far as I know they didn't find P. orchidioides in bloom also P. oblongiloba was still burried by this time.

You can see already photos of P. hemiepiphytica, P. colimensis, P. crassifolia, P. elizabethiae and P. ibarrae in the wild on Oliver's website:

http://www.gluch.info/ I think others will follow...

We also saw 3 populations of P.moranensis and one is worth mentioning: the one closest to P.orchidioides (about 30km away). The rosettes were typical P.moranensis, maybe a little smaller and more compact than usual. Curiously however, the flowering parts were nearly IDENTICAL to those of P.orchidioides! The flowers scapes were red and the flowers equal in color and shape. Just the spur wasn't as thin and long in P.moranensis maybe.

That is quite interesting that some of those P. moranensis forms have similar flowers like P. orchidioides. I noticed already the same in the photos of Noah & Forbes. Why do you think P. orchidioides and also P. oblongiloba build such a different winter-rosette compared with P. moranenis? Is it because of the different habitat that might be more dry in winter?

Cheers,

Markus

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Hello Markus,

I'm not sure you can say the winter rosettes of P.moranensis are very different. Many form very compact rosettes buried under the ground...

Best Wishes,

Fernando Rivadavia

P.S. I didn't see any characteristic veining or different leaf shape in P.zecheri. Maybe it's just the clone that is in cultivation. But then again, I'm sure you can find the same characteristics in different P.moranensis clones...

P.P.S. I didn't find any pics of wild P.elizabethiae on his site... But I hope to have some to show to you soon... ;)

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