gardenofeden Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 often a grey area, but what do people think are the differences? For example, I only have one atropurpurea, the Don Schnell clone, which for me goes all red. Some people list this as rubricorpora though, perhaps as it can have a few green flecks in the lid? Here is a pic: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 Was Schnell correct to separate the species into varieties? There are so many gradations between the varieties that it is often impossible to assign a particular plant to one or other. He identified six varieties but could as easily have described sixteen... Looking at the photo my reaction would be var. atropurpurea (I don't have Schnell's book to hand to check the description), but others may see it differently. Growing conditions also play a large role. The plant would look very different if it was grown in lower light levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenofeden Posted February 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 Schnell: "var. atropurpurea: lid and external pitcher tube deep red in ideal growing conditions; pitcher interior pale tan or also red. When cultivated, the deep red colour is often difficult to maintain and even plants brought in will fade perceptibly in a few weeks. "Var. rubricorpora: the external tube is entirely deep red to reddish purple in full sun, the tube lining is yellowish buff, but the lid is green with prominent red veins" ... so, my interpretation is that if it has a red tube and a red lid, or mostly red lid or anything except for "green with prominent red veins" then it is atropurpurea. As Aidan has pointed out, there are so many gradations. For example, my "giant red tube" does not have a yellowish buff tube lining, but it is definite rubricorpora in my eyes... perhaps Schnell was being too simplistic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob-Rah Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 It also depends on the acidity of the soil I have found. Strongly acidic soils are conducive to heavy anthocyanin production. Tannin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 ...perhaps Schnell was being too simplistic? Schnell took on an impossible task. S. flava displays an entire spectrum of colour from (largely) all-green through all-red. To separate the species into varieties, at some point a decision had to be made as to what defined a particular variety. Obviously his decisions were based on informed opinion, but to some degree the selection of the point along the spectrum where a particular variety is defined as lying must be arbitrary. As Stephen has demonstrated this leads to acute problems in identifying plants, particularly at the red end of the scale. The defining of varieties should have clarified the situation. Unfortunately, it appears to have done the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 A rubricorpora x atropurpurea cross might produce say, some all red plants apart from underneath the hood for example. Without knowing the parentage, it would be very hard to put it in either category! What would you class this plant as? http://i6.ebayimg.com/01/i/06/3c/3e/d2_1_b.JPG Too faintly veined for ornata according to Schnell and lacking in the features described for var. flava :? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sheila Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 It's hard to tell what that picture is other than to say it is flava of some sort. It looks as though the picture has been taken in the dark and the unnatural light is masking its true colours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil B Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Rob, can you explain further - "Strongly acidic soils are conducive to heavy anthocyanin production. Tannin?" Im just looking at light/pigment relations at college. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aidan Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Phil - There is an interesting paper on anthocyanins here: http://www.charlies-web.com/specialtopics/anthocyanin.html A short quote relevant to your question: Environmental factors affecting anthocyanin production included light (intensity and wavelength, with blue and UV being most effective), temperature, water and carbohydrate levels, and the concentrations of the elements nitrogen, phosphorous and boron in the growth medium. Anthocyanin production can be induced by light, blue being the most effective color. Low light levels also induce the formation of different flavonoid pigments, which is another interesting adaptive response on the part of plants. (Tillandsias, for example, develop a bright red coloration due to induced anthocyanin production if grown in strong light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob-Rah Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Rob, can you explain further - "Strongly acidic soils are conducive to heavy anthocyanin production. Tannin?" Im just looking at light/pigment relations at college. What Aiden said :-D Reagrding tannin reminds me of tea... I have experimented on a spare "dark" S. purpurea the last year actually. One division went into a weakly acid bog garden, the other into a peat mix and applied a weak infusion of common-or-garden stewed tea every so often. The latter is much redder, verging on purple-black. I don't advocate pouring tea over all CPs, but I have also used it effectively for the short-term control of algae in an indoor culture of U. gibba. I forget if the forum thread about that was on the old forum a number of years back, or whether you might find it here with the search thing... Bear in mind that tannin (in tea) is not tannic acid though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugweed Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 The only trouble with varietal names is, when a rubricorpora does turn all red ( I have one that goes all red in summer, standard textbook description of rubricorpora in spring), you have a hard time convincing anyone it isn't an atropurpurea. However, by varietal names, it just changed its own identity! Sometimes these guys are sinister! One other thing, I have to use tannic tea (Rob Sacilotos recipe) in order for my atropurpurea's to turn red. Otherwise they look very ornata like with a rugelii style throat blotch. Which IS attractive BTW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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