I have a few of these from self sown seed. Growing in a water tray with both grandiflora and vulgaris adjacent, all flower freely and set seed every year. These are much smaller than grandiflora, but similar colour and bigger than vulgaris. Rosettes look like grandiflora.

What do you think?

it seems to me always a grandiflora subsp grandiflora

jeff

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Jeff
this is my P.grandiflora, very different

bigger flower, no gaps between corolla lobes, almost vertical lower lip

note the suspected hybrid has an almost horizontal lower lip and well defined, separated lobes to the flower, which are P.vulgaris traits

I agree with Jeff's opinion, this is a normal P. grandiflora subsp. grandiflora. This species is very variable but the ones you showed fit into P. grandiflora characters.

Regards

Aymeric

Sorry, I should have added more detail initially. I have been growing Pinguicula grandiflora for about 25 years, always this form with the large flowers (which I assumed was the most common form, certainly in the UK anyway)

it always comes true from seed with no variation in the flowers.

This year I have had several plants flower from some self pollinated and self sown seed. I seem to remember they came from beside a Pinguicula vulgaris, which is what I labelled them as, last year, before they flowered. So in my own mind they are variants on Pinguicula vulgaris, with a hybrid of vulgaris and grandiflora being my best guess, as these are the only two plants which grow together in the coldframe and they look completely intermediate between the two forms of grandiflora and vulgaris I grow..


I don't see how they can be pure grandiflora, as they look nothing like the (only)form of grandiflora I grow. The chances are that some natural variation has crept in to my grandiflora? Very unlikely. If it was just one plant out of several I could understand, but this is a whole batch of seedlings which all resemble each other but neither possible parent plant. The only other plant that could be involved is Pinguicula corsica, but that has normally finished flowering before grandiflora and vulgaris start.

for me it is nevertheless a grandiflora subsp grandiflora , I know well the grandiflora subsp grandiflora ' in situ' on all the pyrenees range , jura, alpes , and massif central the coroll form are with large lobs or fine lobs , edge wavy or not , blue violet to pale blue when they are aged .

these 2 vulgaris and grandiflora are 'autogame' 'in situ' ,then 'autogame' strict or partial (I am not talking manual 'autogamie' or 'allogamie') ?

jeff

Jeff, useful information, thanks. Have you ever seen vulgaris x grandiflora, and if so what are the key features?

the Pinguicula in the coldfrane set seed with no intervention from me, I assume the bees are getting busy....

Considering the new features you added, it might be an hybrid in this case. Could you please add a picture of your P. vulgaris, and side and from above pictures of your possible hybride and the parents?
For me, regarding what I saw in the wild (I know several locations of P. grandiflora subsp. grandiflora x P. vulgaris and P. grandiflora subsp. rosea x P. vulgaris), the flowers of this hybrid is very closed to P. grandiflora subsp. grandiflora but differs from this from a little wider corolla, a less open corolla tube angle and sepals intermediate in form between P. grandiflora subsp. grandiflora and P. vulgaris.

Regards

Aymeric

it will have to be next year now, they have all finished flowering.

when you say pictures from above, do you mean pictures of the flowers or the rosettes?

I have seen , for my case ,none temperate hybrids 'in situ' for instant..

but I assume they are strictly self-pollinated (strict 'autogame ')in the nature and therefore no possibility of hybridization (I may be wrong, can also be partial ?)

jeff