all photo and plants of my friend not me ! I could not do it.
many people have criticized me, I will close photo !! I never post photo in here

Did you collect those plants from the wild?

The hand shovel, soiled hands and uprooted plants pictured are not a good look.

Mr. Son,

Please don't dig Nepenthes up out of the wild...

Great find, but next time, just take a few cuttings and/or harvest some seed and leave the rooted plants in the wild where you find them. They may even have disease and root parasites such as nematodes that could harm other plants. Cuttings of these plants root in just a few weeks, and seedlings can grow to full maturity within a few short years, and the original plants left in the ground will recover from a few cuttings and the population will remain in tact. - Rich

MY GOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWDDDDDDD!!!!


The first one must be the true N. thorelii!!!!

Or I'm getting too excited....


François.

Dear Sean,

While I really agree 100 % with you.
I really think we should smoothly trying to "educate" hobbyists from new CP countries.

François.

Yes I too agree with you 100% Francois. It just doesn't look good on a public forum. What we perceive as ethically wrong is undoubtedly a non-issue in many parts of the world. I shall dismount the moral highhorse.

Exactly ! What many of us in the West don't appreciate, is that in many of those Countries where 'our beloved plants' grow, they are just considered WEEDS.

SO - Francois, do you really think that many be the true thorelii

Well, as a taxonomist wannabe, I will "professionally" answer: "We'll see once I will observe the plants and collect herbarium samples and studied them."

But my Nepenthes passionate heart and bionic Indochinese eye say: "This is the very thorelii plant I spent so many hours on when I was in Paris herbarium"!


OK, Seriously, If Son is willing to help I will book my flights to Vietnam very very soon. Just have to do (many many) extra hours at work now ;-)) (and convince wife and kids)


Gosh, this is a great day!


François.

Hey François, glad to see you're on top of this! It could be a very important find indeed! There just might be more species left to discover in Viet Nam! Let's hope we find them before they go extinct due to habitat destruction! - Rich

It definately looks like the herbarium specimens. It is very likely the true N. thorelii. François, is this place in the Ti-tinh/Ong-Yem area? Mate, run there, tell these people not to dig up the plants, take seeds, cuttings and try to see how many colonies we can hope to find of this maybe-nearly-extinct species!!! If you need another job, I'll find you a place as gardener in London!! :)!!!

Sorry, but he digs out a complete Nepenthes plant from the wild...

That sucks

Yes, that's horrible, and the more we are saying that, the more this concept will be understood.

You mean, it isn't already booked

I fully agree that digging up wild plants is a no-no.
But probably not many people who just obtained their first CP for example asked whether it was imported in accordance with the CITES regulations, whether it was collected from the wild or if it came with a phytosanitary certificate, because nobody has said they should.
I know I didn't...
As already mentioned above, should new growers not to be given the chance to learn that there is more to being a plant enthusiast than just to grow them?

Yes ,as already has been said,we know you shouldn't take plants from the wild BUT! I for one didn't always know,in some countries it may even be encouraged.
If Francois actually goes over there (have a great time) it'd be a great opportunity to do some CP education for our young freinds in Vietnam.

I can also add another example:
beware of nurseries that don't have a clear and clean fame in the Nepenthes community. The fact that they give CITES doesn't mean much. The CITES makes them and you clean in front of the law. But what happens before? It happens that poor farmers dig up plants from the roots to make some money, they go to Nepenthes nurseries to sell the plants they collected, and the nursery owner has two possibilities: say yes, take the plants and sell them; say no, and the farmer will go to another nursery or the plants will die. Usually the nursery will say yes. Then it's just a matter of filling some papers and here you have your CITES (info given to me by the nurseries themselves! ...from their point of view: "what can I do? I feed a poor man, get some plants and Nepenthes will never disappear, the forest is biiiig"). AND western growers are always there, tens of them, ready to buy anything.
Popular western nurseries always made clear their TC/seeds/cuttings facilities and original sources. But just give a look at many other nurseries from SE asia: they have a list, they will send you plants with CITES, stop. That's all you know. Is that enough? I know, for most of you it is, as buyers (often little kids of 13-15 y.o., who ignore the conservation problem) keep increasing. In fact, this only wants to be a little reminder to experienced growers... be careful! Plants sold by SE Asian nurseries but coming originally from BE, EP etc are of course fine, that's the right way to follow... but when it comes to local species, you never know...

This is why it's important for people who have the experience and the knowledge to help educate others who don't know what they do.

DEFRA do checks on nurseries selling plants with CITES. It is not enough to simply have the certificate, DEFRA spot check and ask for proof that the plants have been artificially propagated and the parent plants where legally collected. If proof cannot be provided you wont be given an Import Certificate. I assume this is also the practice in other EU countries but it may not be. It is only a spot check so there will always be exceptions.

About 100 km from the original area.
I will go Cello. This is even more important than the new species from Pursat.

François.

Great to hear that François! Just explain to the wife and family that you have a very important appointment with fate and destiny and that your financial and other monetary issues will have to take a back seat for now. If you don't go, you may regret it for the rest of your life and one day wake up to find that you've become a grumpy old grouch! It would be good to have a look-see around the original places where the herbarium specimens were recorded as well since it's so close by; also would be great if you found some N. kampotiana stands if it's feasible. Looking forward to your report on this when you get back! ;) - Rich

When reading Stewarts book, I noted that the seed capsules could be up to 5 cm, which seems incredible. From seeing the herbarium photos I realised that they can vary much in size, but still, that is huge.

Regards,

Christer

Collect spares or seeds, please
We will not encourage digging rare wild plants

OK, That's a deal.

I will go in less than three months and will meet the growers. I will explain them how to preserve those rare plants.
The aim of my trip will be to collect herbarium samples, make a global survey of the population, then write a scientific paper and a... field report for the forum!
If is indeed the original true N. thorelii (a thing I am convinced), it will be a great new because this species had not been seen nor reported since its description... in 1909!

Wish me good luck ;-)

François.

Godspeed François, Have a GREAT trip! - Rich

Hi,

Would it be possible to retitle the topic as "N. thorelii rediscovered ?". I think it would be a much more fitting title.

Thanks to the moderators crew.


François.

Interesting how the discussion seems to be moving towards the 'fait accompli, let's forget the dude is holding a trowel and had muddy hands while holding the bare rooted plant' phase.
Sad, sad, sad.

The less we have to do with this the less likely it is to happen.

The unfortunate reality is that wholesale habitat destruction accounts for FAR more extinctions than an occasional removal of the entire plant, roots and all. N. clipeata and N. bokoriensis are recent proofs to that fact. Sad to think of what and how many species may have gone under before even having been discovered, or rediscovered.

Wiki's page on this species is a very close match: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepenthes_thorelii

Thank goodness this historic find is documented and soon to be confirmed before it's too late. At least we will still have a chance to save the original gene pool from such a tragic fate. This site is already surrounded by plantations, who eventually will clear this land for expansion using fire and herbicides on these pants. Sad to see such closed minded, self-righteous, judgmental and condescending posts. Sometimes REAL life offers us only bad choices. - Rich

Funny, after adding this comment this post could also be described in this way.

Let's all go out and take photos of ourselves holding plants we've dug out of the ground. I'm sure it will do wonders for the forum and the hobby in general.

Obviously the digging up of the single plant does not compare to wholesale habitat destruction and is unlikely to affect the overall population, but it still does not look good on a public forum.

When you re-visit a site that used to be a robust population of a rare Nepenthes species and notice that it's been recently and totally reduced to a slab of ash and burnt ruins of what used to live there, or a debris field of rubble and gravel from heavy land moving equipment that has reduced it to a new road side clearing, then you might appreciate the devastating effects that these developments can have on a small population of rare plants such as these endangered Nepenthes species. By the time those decisions have been made, the general public is usually totally unaware of the consequences of the doom and destruction that is about to occur. Again, sometimes the only choices we have in real life are bad ones. Deal with it. This is Planet Reality. Grow up! - Rich

Continue on at your own condescending best.

I'm sure that the only reason the guy ripped the plant up was because he was concerned that the area was to be razed.



Like introducing a potential weed species into an wetland environment for ones own pleasure?

I'm NOT condoning ripping out an entire plant, roots and all, please read this entire thread to confirm. I'm not sure what your implications are either in regard to "introducing a potential weed species into an wetland environment for ones own pleasure".

Farmers happen to grow many plants for various reasons that are NOT indigenous to their particular region; it doesn't make that practice a bad thing.

My son happens to be a grad student and was recently faced with an interesting ethical question: "Suppose you are at the controls of a large commuter train system with the ability to switch tracks and detour trains, and noticed a train of some 100+ passengers that has lost all brakes and engine controls is on a collision course with another train carrying about 300+ passengers which would kill almost all of those people and causing less harm those in the train with 100 people, and had the decision to make which could detour the runaway train away to its doom which would kill only those 100+ passengers abroad in order to save the passengers on the train with 300+ passengers, what would you do? Now, suppose those 100+ passengers just happened to be your family and friends, what would you do?"

Real life issues aren't always reduced into a context of simple "black and white" differences, but usually just varying shades of gray, depending on how you look at them and in what light you shine on them. Maturity and enlightenment does help to understand these things.

Be careful when passing judgment on others and making condescending remarks before you really know ALL the details of the situation. It just comes across as being self-righteous, judgmental, arrogant and uninformed.

- Rich

Of course there are many choices to be made, good and bad, in life. This post has nothing to do with this. There is no "the land is about to be razed, quick, let's save the plants" here. Not that THAT excuse has not been abused in the past.
Everyone can overanalyse a situation and convince themselves that the choice they make is morally justified. I think this is exactly what happened here, seeing the direction the posts moved away from the "Bad look" and "Not on" towards the "Wow, this dude has something interesting!" and "It happens, let's move on".
My opinion is that glossing over what's happened here is we have overanalysed the situation, and discussed ourselves back into the warm and fuzzies, when as a forum we should be making it absolutely crystal clear that we do not approve of going out there and digging up endangered species. Digging up any wild plants, unless one has a valid permit or the landowner's permission. (Mr Son, if you did have the landownders permission, come out and say so and save yourself a whole lot of criticism ).
In the end, in my opinion, the original post is EXACTLY the sort of post we do NOT want as an example of what we do or a behaviour we condone, full stop. It does not give details and so we work with what we have. As I said above, if there is a justification for it, well and good. The fact none has been forthcoming is a bit of a giveaway.
Miguel.

OK, I think you all made your point.

Sean was absolutely right when he first pointed that this kind of behaviour is to be avoided and that such pictures are not good on a public forum.

I'm sure that Son et al weren't trying to save some rare plants. They just stumbled into these interesting pitcher-plants and wanted to bring some home and to grow them.

Do you think, for a second, that Son and his friends would have posted these "compromising" shots if they had thought it would be considered "evil"?

MFS, People from some developing countries are often far from our western concerns and you look judgemental indeed.





Thanks for the French words. And thanks for "overanalysing the situation" for us.

I never meant to look as if I was ignoring the poaching (this word has only a meaning to us, here, in that particular situation) and that I was moving to an "Oh! he found something interesting, so let's forget it-attitude" just because these Vietnamese growers found an historic Nepenthes.

I'm about to do something: go there, record the plant, write a scientific paper, hopefully collect seed (with permits in case you're asking) to spread it into cultivation and, most of all, "educate" the neophyte local people who's interested in these plants. Are you?
By bashing in public, even in a subtle way, all you manage to do is looking like self righteous western people frowing down on "ignorant" Vietnamese dudes.
They dug up plants. They shouldn't have done it. We told them. Full stop. So what? Do you want to fill up this entire thread with pages of condescendant messages? What's the point? It's so easy to do so behind the screen.

It's just like educating: there is no point in only stating "BAD!BAD!BAD!". These growers obviously don't think they did something wrong, so teach them!

I really do not envy your manichaean world.



François.

Well said François, I would also like to point out that many people in these countries are NOT as fluent in the English language as many of us here and may feel a bit intimidated to post something that could very well be an important find such as this. The point was already made not to dig up the entire plant, and that should be enough. It serves no purpose to sentence Son to death by finger-wagging and condemnation. Let's make this world a better place with a little acceptance, tolerance and understanding. - Rich

Well Said Francois & Rich.
Now if people could just get of there high horse and enjoy the amazing fact that this plant appears to have been rediscovered after 100 years. And that Francois is going to check and help those involved to do things in a slightly better (to us) way for the future.

Good luck Francois. Anything to help preserve future biodiversity at this stage of the Holocene mass extinction event is good in my book!

For the latest in this sorry saga see:

http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=35477

Well MFS,

Even it might surprise you, my opinion is still exactly the same.
We have to "educate" these young growers.

What's really get on my nerves is poachers from well developped countries. People who came from abroad who organized a whole expedition just to rip a population of rare plants.



Francois.

I agree, being mad at these poachers in Vietnam is almost like getting mad at your puppy for peeing on your carpet or eating your plants. Although frustrating, you won't get anywhere by being mad at it (them). They just don't see the seriousness of what has happened, they're in a totally different reality.

Best wishes,
Fernando

One could also be mad at the western countries for having such a carelessly high living standard that is also mostly profit-led, resulting in tropical deforestation, global warming, monocultures (the list could go on...) etc. so "we" also do our part on species extinction it just depends on how you look at it and if you want to feel guilty.
Of course its devastating to witness something like this, but its no use getting mad at people that have a totally different point of view due to their way of living.

But at least we know that the plants have to be somewhere, so maybe they will surface somewhere in the collection of an ambitious grower or even a nursery.

Hopefully.

It is equally possible they end up sold at the roadside to someone who has no idea and they die shortly afterwards.

Lets hope they end up with someone who knows what they are doing and what they have.

Just my two cents worth.
I feel sorry for the guy that started this post I think a more polite response would have been more useful. Of course seeds or cuttings would be better but in a lot of countries Nepenthes habitats are destroyed by fire or agriculture or whatever. For example I saw a Nepenthes vieillardii and Drosera neocalidonica swamp in New Caledonia that had been burnt and ploughed. It was really sad to see the Drosera neocaledonica plants that had been burnt. So digging out the odd plant, while definitly not good is small potatoes in the big picture of things. People almost never listen if you are rude. To my mind it should be legally ok to collect seed in more places and encourage people to do this rather than being high and mighty in western countries saying you cannot touch any part of the plant. Seed is the best way to gtet new plant that are healthy and disease free also you end up with more genetic variation in the propagted plants.
Ross

this guy came pretty close to making an entire species extinct and posted a photo of him and his mates doing it, plant and spade in hand, I think the comments turned out to be quite reserved in the end!

Umm yeah I just read about how they took every *%^&@ plant in the other post. I had not realised how greedy some people are.

Sorry, but that is not correct.

Mr Son ONLY posted the pictures (it seems without permission). The pictures were taken by someone else and Mr son was not with them. So he didn't do anything to harm this species. But without him posting the pic's, we probably wouldn't now that this species appears to still exist.

Here I go again,
I'll start by saying "not to be pedantic"... and proceed to be pedantic

If you look at the criticisms made, the majority seems to be aimed not at Mr Son for digging up plants (whether he did or not is really unknowable, at least from where I sit), rather at the posting of those photos on a public forum. There is a subtle but important difference, IMO.

What I objected to was the fact that we as a forum appeared initially to be excited and perhaps too ready to overlook what was being portrayed, and in my mind appeared to condone that sort of behaviour. If I didn't do a good enough job of making this clear I apologise, I know many people interpreted my commentary as attacking Mr Son directly.

Fair point, but equally he obviously condoned their actions, anything said later could esily be face saving BS, and i'd rather the plant still existed and we didn't know, than we knew that it once existed and may not anymore.

Ah but that's a tricky one. If we don't know about it, then how can we be sure it isn't already extinct. Just as there may still be huge populations of it - somewhere that no one knows about.

It is only by knowing that something is threatened, that things get done to try and save it.

The biggest problem this time, may not have been those locals who found it and made this known - after all they never knew it was thorelli.
But by US 'westerners' making such a fuss about it's discovery - thus making others (looking over the forums) aware that it was a highly valued plant and worth digging up to sell.