I grow my plants in terrarium but this contribution to the forum is not as much about terraria as it is about artificial feeding of CPs so if needed please move it to more apropriate department.
Some time ago I have been thinking about how to keep the plants vividly growing even when the conditions arent very favorable (e.g. winter) when there is not enough prey/insects. It is well understood that CP are green plants capable of photosyntesis and that supplementation of N P and other lacking elements via digestion of prey is not necessary requirement for their survival. Of course a nourished plant grows and propagates better than struggling one. The importance of feeding the plants varies from one species to another and is maybe the most obvious in the case of tuberous droserae when they need (in very short time) grow rapidly bloom and create seeds or extra tubers. Without enough prey some of them only form a terrestrial rosette and then go back to dormancy without flowering and further propagation. All of the CPs are onlu capable of digestion of very simple molecules. So the prey body's components have to be broken down to its primary structures (aminoacids glycides fatty acids phosphosacharides etc). Depending on the CP genus not all of the components can be used for nourishing the plant. Enzymes available are the crucial determinating point. Well I designed an experiment to perform and determine whether there is a way to nourish the plants artificially to boost their growth and sustain wellness.
As we know the anorganic fertilizers work mostly on the principle of addition of nitrogen in ammonium or nitrate form (or both in case of ammonium nitrate) phosphorus in form of sec. and tert. fosfates....potassium as KNO3 or KCl..and so on....in other words in a form unacceptable for most of CPs.
Organic fertilizers are mostly urea guanidine calcium cyanamide (nitrolime) or other compounds with little tollerance of Cp to such fertilization.
So i decided to try a different kind of food supplement for CPs...the very same that is used for animals.

I took a powder mix of some aminoacids (lysine proline glutamic acid valine isoleucine serine tyrozine etc) fatty acids (stearic lignoceric acids and myristic acid) glycosides glycides and coenzymes and minerals such as Mg and vanadyl sulphate..)
This i prepared dilute solution from and fed it to the plant once a week for two months.
I only used Heliamphora and Nepenthes for this first experiment.
In case of Heliamphora (minor) I had two plants coming from a cluster division of one plant...therefore genetically identical and they were grown together under the same conditions except one was fed the solution and the other was just as a referrence plant. The pictures show that both plants grew the same amount of new pitchers and that the frequency of growth did not increase but the growth of each new pitcher of fed plant was more rapid and the traps distingtively better developed:




In case of Nepenthes i used common cheap hybrid x Ventrata. The young plant was fed for one month the very same nutrients. The next pitches was much bigger then the previous created by plant and actually bigger than tha plant itself:




It would be nice to see whether this works with slow-growing nepenthes and other carnivorous genus.
I havent tried this with pinguicular nor sarracenias (dormancy). But i have tried with droseras. The food was fed in solid/powder form directly onto the leaf. (D. capensis D.slackii D peltata) but before the food could be digested the affected leaf was a subject to rot/mould attack. This I think happens because droserae genus dont possess glycosidases-enzymes making the digestion of sugars possible. Since there were sugars present they remained undigested and therefore an inducement for fungus growth.
I think with the proper analysis of enzymes in plants it is possible to design a harmless fertilizer to be mixed to meet each plant`s requirements:-)

Sorry for the long lecture I just wanted to share my results and thought it might be of interest to some.
Also I would like to ask you whether anyone had tried this before i did and what was the outcome of the experiment:-)

P.S. Apologies for my English for it is not mu native tongue....

Well it certainly looks like one heli had grown much more than the other - though it may have been better to grow them in the same substrate for your experiments - personally I find my heli's grow better in pure sphagnum than in peat mixes anyway......

Heather

Hi Heather!

They are in the very same substrate.....pure peat. The spaghnum on the left is just a topping. The other one had that too but i removed it before taking that picture so you can see the smaller one in its full size.

A very interesting post, thanks Dudo!

I'll eagerly await further findings.

You know, it was just today (well, yesterday now) that I popped into the local health food shop to grab a protein bar when I had a gander at the amino acid supplements they had on display and thought to myself, "Will these work on my plants?" You certainly seem to have demonstrated it here. Thanks for sharing!

Amori

A great contribution to the forum, thank you for sharing your knowledge! I'm also trying some aminoacidic fertilization on some species, but for a too short time to have still any conclusion.

Very interesting Dudo! I'd like to try to replicate this with my plants when I've the time.

Thanks for the post, I am already thinking of how big my helis and neps might get

Dudo,

Interesting experiment. You say that you made a dilute mix, could you have not simply added the powder to the pitchers?

Mobile: I suppose i could have used powder form but I didnt want to. Neps and sundews cannot digest poly and oligosugars because there are no glycosidases enzymes to break them down. See my mix contains a lot of sugar so I feared when using a concentrated form I would kill the pitcher (or the plant) by creating perfect media for fungus attack. The exactly same hapenned with sundews. So i tried a solution instead. Maybe if the pitcher has plenty of concentrated juices inside a bit of powder would work just as well. Dont think the amount of water in the pitcher makes a big difference but i might be wrong. Or if I used pure aminoacid mix there would be no problem for use on drosera as well:-)This area need far more extensive research than this:-)

Dudo,

Was it a protein shake that you used?

Really interesting post!

When are you going to put your mix on the market?

Thanks

Dennis

Well for this pilot experiment I used a protein shake readily available in any gym/wellness centre. I have been using some myself for sports activities but then I read the composition label and noticed some of the components match the substances that are digested by CP's enzymes (as they are by animals). So let me point out that it is not MY mix nor is patented by me in any way. The protein shake (which in fact is not a protein shake but a blend of over 80 chemical compounds and majority is not a protein compound). Needless to say this mix is not perfect because there are so many ballast chem. substances that may or may not harm the complexity of digestion mechanism and consecutive process (pH as most important factor). It has been proven that major compound in this mix (sacharides) is of no use (nepenthes) and even harmful(drosera) for the plants. There is a need for significant improvement of such blends.For me this was just to make sure that this really works and I think that with some reservation it might be said that in some cases it really does....Luckily I have some gadgets like HPLC available to carry on to this research and find out the enzymatic nature of each genus and therefore to design an organic fertilizer for each particular CP genus. It is more than clear that this is a long run experiment and the verification of its outcome is time consuming (thankfully not very expensive). When the effects of particular mixes are shown then mixes of chemicals will be made and later put on market. Unfortunatelly at this time i am consumed by work on finalizing my PhD so the CPs must wait...for now....If anyone has some time on his/her hands I would be more than happy to cooperate:-)

Yep, a very interesting thread thanks.

There seem to be several people currently experimenting with different aspects of growing -
fertilising, composts, Effective Microbes, we should all have some monster plants in a few years.

Do keep us updated with future results.

Thanks for sharing your experiment with us. *Better living through Chemistry*

Dudo,

What dilution rates did you try?

so far I used 20% per weight but will try more concentrated solutions or even a powder form.

UPDATE: I have been feeding this heliamphora minor my mix of 18 L-aminoacids (1gram pre week). In 2 weeks it grew 5 more pitchers:


The biggest pitcher is over 10cm now and still growing


P.S. I switched to pure aminoacids mixture from regular protein mix because i had problems with undigested components of regular mix that caused fungi attack sometimes. Using pure aminoacids causes no such thing. The maximum dose is 5g per month (growth is boosted both qualitatively and quantitatively).

Dudo, that is fantastic. Would you mind enlightening us on what brand of AA mix you used for this experiment?

I too would be interested in what brand of protein mix you are using. I have tried a soya protein powder, containing 18 amino acids. Unfortunately, after two weeks of it being in the pitchers, the smell was very bad so I ended up removing it and flushing. I think the smell may have had something to do with the egg white solids and brewer's yeast in the powder. No harm was done to the pitcher though and a new pitcher is developing adjacent to the one which contained the mix. I might try it again but with less protein mix added as I think I might have added too much last time.

Amori: My first intention was to use a classical protein shake but then i found that majority of this mix cannot be digested by the plants so it accumulates in the pitchers and also in substrate and contaminates it. Then the powder residue becomes a great substrate for mould fungi etc.
So I wanted to switch to the most effective form - BCAA (branche-chained amino acids). These I didnt use because they are way too expensive to be fed to plants (I love my CPs but not that much;-)))). So I am using a mix of pure amino acids.

Mobile: I think you used too much of that mix and that the mix was not the best thing to be used for this purpose. I used to have the same problem when I started experiments. If you give feed the plant too much it will either die or you will encounter fungi attack or something like that (especially when your mix contains sugars and the plant is grown at higher humidity levels)

BCAA consist of 3 amino acids - leucine, isoleucine and valine. Can these be utilised by plants?

These three are in a group of 9 AA called essential (the ones that body cannot produce itself). That is why they are used for humans to boost and protect muscles and also speeds up bone and skin recovery.
Note: there are other BCAA than these 3 you mentioned. I dont know how about in UK but here the BCAA are way too much expensive to be wasted on plants. Remember, the plant doesnt need to grow muscle she only absorbs nitrogen from these compounds. In other words, there are much cheaper aminoacids to be supplemented to the plants to thrive.
P.S. If you can afford the BCAA go ahead! Make sure you dont overdose them! Sometimes less is more;-)

BCAA is quite expensive here too and is often supplied in either tablet form or powder with added flavourings. Both these forms have additives which may not be of use, or maybe even harmful to plants. The most common amino acid available here, which appears to be available in pure powder form is L-glutamine but I don't know if it would be of any use on its own.

How about this one?

http://www.superfooduk.com/amino-acid-comp...blets-746-p.asp

I found a paper claiming that many of the amino acids inhibited cell growth in Nicotiana sylvestris (tobacco plant), with the exception of L-Glutamine which enhanced yield. The paper can be found here: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2971572. I know that this is a completely different species to the plants being discussed here but it makes me wonder if it would be better to use just L-Glutamine. I will order some and give it a go.

Jim,

The one you link to above does not appear to contain L-glutamine.

Thanks for your responce Dudo, I reckoned it was the usual BCAA. There's plenty of it in my supplements but, as you mentioned, the other constituents just won't do the digestive fluids any good at all (sweeteners and strawberry flavouring? Definitely no...). I've noticed that pitchers overfed with fish food pellets harbour mold too.

Glutamine, eh? It's not too expensive either which is a bonus. Try http://www.discount-supplements.co.uk for starters. I always order from them and they are very reliable. Then my plants and I can share a common supplement for once!

jimfoxy: that could do. I mean it is just mix of aminoacids with NO ADDITIVES. Importatnt thing is there is no sugar added. Looks perfect(not sure about the milk though). Although I dont use this supplement (I mix my own mixture from L-AA we keep in the university lab) I think the one product you pointed out might work. I just feel like I should warn everyone not to overfeed the plants! They will die. Using this supplements overfeeding can occur so easily! Just for consideration: an adult man (80kg weight) should not eat more than 5,0g BCAA per day! Now imagine how little amount is needed for a tiny plant! Another thing is that I have only tried this with the heliamphora and nepenthes species. God knows how other CPs would react to such nutrition. anyways, good luck to anyone who is willing to experiment! :-)

Found the following company who supply in smaller quantities (100g) so maybe a little cheaper if you only need small quantities...

http://www.myprotein.co.uk/bulk-powders/amino-acids/

For those (in the UK at least) that fancy trying these BCAA supliments but don't fancy enduring funny looks by walking round a bodybuilding shop without a bodybuilders physique, Holland and Barrett do a range of BCAAs at a good price, eg.

http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/pro...ail.asp?pid=152

the breakdown of whats in each tablet is.....

http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/vf/labels/005091HB.pdf

Well, my body certainly doesn't look like the one on the label

UPDATE: On the left is Heliamphora minor with newly developed trap. It is 11.5cm tall.On the right another specimen I used to grow without supplemental nutrition for comparison. About a month ago i started to fertilize it as well and now it is growing 5(!) pitchers at the same time:

I've purchased some L-glutamine and put a tiny amount in a couple of Heliamphora pitchers. I will report on the results in a few weeks.

A great topic Dudo, that heli looks like its doing very well the the extra nutrition! Look forward to hearing about your results too Carl.

Heather

Thanx Heather!
It is very exciting to see getting every next pitcher getting bigger and nicer:-) Currently I am also testing another mix on drosera genus. Will report on that soon!

Interesting, But of course before you do all this you would need to repeat the experiment many times and apply statistical tests to the data to see if it is significant.

This is not necessarily due to the mix you are using. With my Heliamphora, every new pitcher produced within a group is larger than the previous, I think it is the nature of the species. In addition, my Heliamphora always put out more pitchers around about this time of year.

mantrid: "repetition" is my middle name;-)
mobile: i see you havent read all my posts carefully. Because if you have, you would learn that in order to rule your hypothesis out I had another 2 helis without supplemental nutrition to compare with the tested one. All 3 plants came from cluster division of one plant and were about the same size (actually the tested one was a bit smaller in the beginning). Potted in the same media grown side by side in the same terrarium. Genetics the same.
In addition, my heliamphora puts out many pitchers and not only about this time of the year;-)

I have read your post very well and with great interest, indeed that is why I have purchased some L-glutamine; however, as I'm sure you would admit, your sample is very small. It is hard to see how amino acids wouldn't help with the growth of plants, certainly in the short term, as they will provide nitrogen but in order to come to any firm conclusion it will be necessary to perform an experiment on the long term effects of amino acids on a large sample of plants.

Maybe another way to tackle this would be to look at the range of prey the cp is taking in their natural environment and analyse the AA composition etc of these invertebrates, as the plant has evolved its enzymes and system of digestion to fit the prey, not selecting appropriate prey to fit enzymes that were already in place.

mobile: i absolutely share your opinion on this topic. As in chemistry, medicine or any other branch where a novel technique is tested, there is a vast and timely experimental part preceeding the actual conclusion (if it is to be relevant and of some importance). I have only been testing this chemicals for a very short time (7 months now) and cannot be led to any conclusion but merely guess which way the results might be heading. Especially with aminoacids i am using, being part of plant's RNA and DNA and also transcription/translation proccess it is hard to say whether there can be a harmful side-effect to the plant. All I can say now is that I havent observed any so far and that the supplemented plant thrives better than the others. Of course you are right a much longer observation time is needed. Any premature conclusions might be very dangerous (e.g. we all know how the use of DDT or thalidomide ended......not good). That is why I am rejecting any offers for distribution of tested mixes.

I found another use for for the aminoacid mixtures. Additional artificial nutrition helps the heliamphora plants to develop roots after division. Sometimes even one single rootless pitcher can be successfully transplanted to a new substrate and develop a new plant really fast. I think that the plant with the absence of roots gets needed nutrition via leafs before she develops her own root system. Of course after trasplanting the heliamphora "leaf cutting" it needs to be filled with water permanently and be put in high humidity environment. I dont know how fast and successful method for heliamphora propagation this is without the use of AA but I think I got many plants pretty fast. (1st picture: september 10, 2008; 2nd picture: same plant after non-uniphase multiple division today). 2 plants are missing (sold):

Very interesting topic!!
I have some questions:
Can you write us composintion of your fertilizer? [in grams of pure L-aminoacids/100g mixture, percents etc.]
Did you try adding inositol and B-group vitamins to your mixture? They are used in in-vitro nourischments and mayby they will work well in fertilisers.

I'm to a chemist- if i have some time i will do small experiment. I will add ~100mg of different pure aminoacid to different pitchers. After 1,2,3,4 etc. days i will compare in TLC sample from pitcher with pattern aminoacid and we will see what aminoacids are hydrolysed/adopted by plant ;)

Regards

This would be interesting, I do hope that you find time to do the experiment. I'm currently using L-Glutamine in a few of my plant pitchers but I don't have the equipment required to test if it's being utilised by the plant.

SATIV: Hi ! Actually you are reading my mind about the mixture composition. I mean, the addition of more caloric nutrient such as sugars. I never tried to use inositol nor kvebrachitol but I am testing some mixtures with D-mannitol/sorbitol currently on drosera genus. They can digest sugars unlike Helis and Nepenthes. I use mix of L-aminoacids. A powdered blend of 18 L-aminoacids (there are 20 essential in nature).
It works pretty well on Helis. Also I add some other ingredients but just to improve the digestion and cell transfer. Will have enzymatic results from a friend soon.
Cant wait to hear about your experiments! Sounds very interesting! GOOD LUCK! :-)

I wonder what the Drosera are getting from sugar after all it is basicly carbon oxygen and hydrogen?

Cheers
George

It is false to believe that CPs digest just and only nitrogen, phospohorus, magnesium and some other such as trace elements. Therefore these sugars (resp. polyols) can serve as a source of elements needed to build up molecules that some plant tissues consist of. Basic compounds are e.g. lignin (hydrophobic tissue part, mostly wooden parts), (hemi)cellulose and others. They also consist only of C,H,O atoms....there is not a single nitrogen atom in these vital structures (unlike for example in very important pectin, whis does contain N ). So in other words....if the plant is capable of digesting these C,H,O compounds by relevant enzymes (oxidoreductases, hydrolazes,...) then it can be utilized in building a plant's body.

CP live on the a very depeleted soils and and they must catch some insects as a source of gaining P, S and N in organic forms which are subsequently incorporated into their tissues [this is an effect of complete lack of inorganic compounds composed of N, S and P in soil] They also use a lot of natural, organic compounds like aminoacids [Ala, Lys etc.] from a process of digestion insects, which normally are got by plant from soil. But what about carbohydrates? [A digestion of insects provides traces of carbohydrates, so they must produce energy by oxidating aminoacids] What can be also interesting is if heliamphoras can digest carbohydrate… The best thing we can do is to check a composition of enzymes in digesting fluid of helis... When there is a huge amount of carbohydrates and other organic compounds in fluid, it may cause fungus attack, so I think that fertilizer should contain only these components, which are adopted by helis/neps...

I added 25mg/1,5ml water of L-leucine to one pitcher of H. minor. After 1-2 hours level of the liqiud reduced of about 20-30% :| In other pitchers i didn't find aminoacids[ninhydrin], the pure liquid also
doesn't react with ninhydrin. I don't know where is this liquid
In the pitcher is still leucine [ninhydrin], i think that for first attempts doing TLC is not essential, becouse i will not
measure concentration of leucine, and pitcher fluid is free from chemicals reacting with ninhydrin so i can only do test with ninhydrin to notice is the aminoacid still in pitcher

I can use HPLC only once for week, so exact measuring concentration od aminoacid will be hard.... I will se how actual method will work ;)

Regards and sory for my english ;)

After 2 days leucine is still in the pitcher.

/now pitcher started to die ;|.... It turned brown in the middle..... [30.03]

Hi Dudo,

great post with lots to think about. I'm no biologist or chemist though so maybe you could tell me if there's any difference in the AA isomer?

Cheers

Steve