10 replies to this topic

[Mujician]

......between a clone, a cultivar, and a variant? Can somebody please explain what these all are?  I just read a thread in which someone had one mature plant but managed to get two different clones from it. How was this possible?

[will9]

Mujician, on 21 July 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

......between a clone, a cultivar, and a variant? Can somebody please explain what these all are?  I just read a thread in which someone had one mature plant but managed to get two different clones from it. How was this possible?

a clone maining for some growers different i think ,for me it s when i have two plants from a different source or from seeds,then i have clone 1 and clone 2.
So 2 plants from the same motherplant is for me not clone 1 and clone 2.
Meaby this are different plants ,meaby not, but i call this because its from 2 different growers.It s only named for know that this are 2 different plants.

A cultivar is a crossing or a different looking plant,make in nature or make by people for make new kinds ,bigger ,nicer ,stronger etc.,the most of the gardenplants are cultivars ,there are only cultivars when she are registred official.

A variant is a different looking specie from another locality,like flava ,flava is the genus,rugelli ,cuprea atropupurea,ornata,rubricorpora are variants from flava,so it s flava var. cuprea ,then you have also subspecie this are variants that looks some different,smaller ,another flowercolor or something.
You can have flava var.cuprea ssp. ..... for example.But this can be wrong ,i am not sure abouth ssp.Sometimes botanist chance var. in ssp. Wats really the difference i not know .

I am not a specialist and meaby i explane not right ,but there are a few botanists on the forum that can explane meaby better,

Cheers Will

Edited by will9, 21 July 2012 - 11:12 AM.

[bearphant]

A clone is a population of genetically identical individuals derived by asexual multiplication by a founder individual. Therefore 2 plants originated from the division of an original plant are not 2 different clones, but 2 individuals belonging to the same clone.
A cultivar is a clone that has particular traits, which make it somehow "unique", and that is properly registered to an International Cultivar Registration Authority.
As far as i know, "variant" is not a correct terminology, but it could be another way to name a clone or a set of clones with similar traits...
On the other hand a variety is a group, with taxonomic validity, of genetically distinct plants with specific traits that distinguish them from other plants of the same species or subspecies, not so distinct as in the subspecies, but still easily recognizable (i.e. the red throat patch on a completely green pitcher of Sarracenia flava var. rugelii, or the pink flower of S. purpurea subsp. venosa var. burkii).

Edited by bearphant, 23 July 2012 - 16:06 PM.

[mantrid]

Theres alot of confusion here for me. I always wondered why everyone refers to a cultivar as a clone. For me a clone is a genetical term to describe one of a group of genetically identical individuals.
A cultivar I understand is short for cultivated variety and can refer to any plant that has been produced by artificial selection regardless of whether it has unique trait or not. A registered cultivar is one that is deemed to have sufficient uniqur traits to be recognised by some kind of official body in the area.
Not sure about variant it just sounds like a general term to me that can apply to slightly different types of a thing. Ive heard the term apply to aircraft, cars and other things.
This is my understanding, I am not certain that I am correct and will stand corrected by anyone who is in the know.

[billynomates666]

Hi all

I always assumed that a cultivar and clone were in effect one and the same thing, in as much as a cultivar can only be reproduced vegetatively to maintain its unique traits and is therefore a clone by definition.

So a clone is vegetative reproduction to maintain genetic traits, cultivar is a registered variety of plant that should only be reproduced in that manner.

Variants are differnt tyopes of teh same thing i.e. flave cuprea, flava rubicorpora, flava ... etc etc.


Cheers
Steve

[Alexis]

Sarracenia siblings from seed are often labelled clone 1, clone 2 etc.

They're obviously not genetically identical.

[bearphant]

mantrid, on 23 July 2012 - 17:31 PM, said:

Theres alot of confusion here for me. I always wondered why everyone refers to a cultivar as a clone. For me a clone is a genetical term to describe one of a group of genetically identical individuals.
A cultivar I understand is short for cultivated variety and can refer to any plant that has been produced by artificial selection regardless of whether it has unique trait or not. A registered cultivar is one that is deemed to have sufficient uniqur traits to be recognised by some kind of official body in the area.

In general you are right: a cultivar (or cultivated variety) is a group of plants (that can be genetically identical or not) created by man, which have a specific common trait, and which mantain such trait when crossed with other plants belonging to the same cultivar, but for carnivorous plants, as far as i know, the term "cultivar" is used to indicate a selected and registered clone. I don't know why, though...  

[Ordovic]

Many cultivars come true from seed but can't think of any registered CP's for which that's true. Where a registered cultivar won't come true from seed it can only be propagated asexually and so cloned.

[will9]

Ordovic, on 25 July 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Many cultivars come true from seed but can't think of any registered CP's for which that's true. Where a registered cultivar won't come true from seed it can only be propagated asexually and so cloned.

Many registred cultivars can be multiply from seeds,carnivorous still not because this is  not cultivate so long like other genus,but it shall came whit time ,like cacti ,many of this registred cultivars are multiply from seeds,te same whit succulents ,gardenplants and match more,even or wel know tomatoes are cultivars that you can multiply from seeds.



As far as i know, "variant" is not a correct terminology, but it could be another way to name a clone or a set of clones with similar traits...
On the other hand a variety is a group, with taxonomic validity, of genetically distinct plants with specific traits that distinguish them from other plants of the same species or subspecies, not so distinct as in the subspecies, but still easily recognizable (i.e. the red throat patch on a completely green pitcher of Sarracenia flava var. rugelii, or the pink flower of S. purpurea subsp. venosa var. burkii).


The variant ,20 years ago you have all cacti var ... ,tath time it was correct and where giving to plants from the same specie but whit a total other look or other flowercolor,mostly from another locality place, never hearing abouth subspecies that time,some botanist have chanched this var. in subspecies and create so another name for the plant for set there name after this ,i see this happened in many cacti books .Pillbeam was one of the first that did this.
If some one can explane me wats the difference between variant and subspecies then i am very thankfull and i have learn t some thing more,
Cheers Will

Edited by will9, 25 July 2012 - 22:16 PM.

[billynomates666]

In sarracenia and carnivorous plants in general as I understand it, no cultivar can be reproduced by seed, otherwise you will not maintain that plants unique traits, as we all know the seedlings due to the genetic mix will all be different, all be it very slightly. A flava x purpurea will always be a Catesbaei (I know its not a cultivar) but they all look very different, if you get what I mean, so selfed, cultivar plants (particularly complex hybrids) will have very differnt offspring, potentially looking nothing like the parent and with very different genes. Nor would the same corssing of the same parent plants produce the same cultivar.

By variants as I understand it, it is that variants contain traits that do not breed true such as colour, veining,  etc so as an unstable trait it is deemed a variant of a species or sub species rather than a proper sub species.

Cheers
Steve

[will9]

By variants as I understand it, it is that variants contain traits that do not breed true such as colour, veining,  etc so as an unstable trait it is deemed a variant of a species or sub species rather than a proper sub species.

Cheers
Steve
[/quote]


This i not understanding fully,i can not read all the words .sorry for that.

When i start whit plants there where no subspecies ,it s a new word for variant .
That time you have only a variant ,for excample  Mammillaria herrerae and herrerae var albiflora,2 totall different plants ,the albiflora is more white and smaller and never make any offsets ,  and have a white flower ,the normall have a rose to red flower and is match more robuster and make offsets.
Booth came treu from seeds and grow not on the same spot,i never hear this 2 are crossed together.
A variant is another ,different kind of plant like a typical,it s also grow not on the same place but have his own locality.
A few years ago is this changed into Mammillaria herrerae ssp. albiflora ,but the first name is in nomenclatuur allways the right if i have not wrong,so i not think ssp. is a good word for variant,please ,if i am wrong i want to hear this.

You have also fa. from forma,for excample ,D capensis typical is the red green plant whit rose flowers ,the right name for the white one must be  D capensis fa. alba,for the red one  fa. red,this are not variants because this are the same plants,there is not enoufgh difference for give the var. status,i hope you understand wat i try to say,
Cheers Will

Edited by will9, 26 July 2012 - 14:59 PM.