37 replies to this topic

[marcello catalano]

I'm still waiting for Wistuba's answer (I'd like him to confirm if I well understood), but I think I've fixed my database according to what his website says, you can check here for monticola and lamii:
http://www.carnivoro...nts.it/aaa.html

[Dave Evans]

Gareth Davies, on 23 June 2012 - 17:06 PM, said:

So, including me, two of us voting that it doesn't need freezing temperatures!
Mine both died with nights down to 10C (50F), days around 17 (65F). I have a feeling that it might need hot days- and so far my experience is that it's not dying with nights around 13c (55F).

It's possible that we are extrapolating too much from villosa. Just because villosa is a sod to grow, and needs a massive temperature drop every day, it doesn't mean that others eg lamii, need the same treatment. Other ultrahighlanders, say densiflora, singalana, edwardsiana, are very happy with highland or even intermediate temperatures.

Gareth, you're discounting the fact most difficult species are also from ultramafic soils.  N. edwardsiana is also, but it grows mostly as an epiphyte and so isn't rooted in the soil.  This difficulty of cultivation lines up very well with the exact species which are terrestrial growers on ultramafic formations.  Is this also the case for N. lamii?

How does this species take orchid fertilizer?

Edited by Dave Evans, 18 October 2012 - 01:54 AM.

[Dave Evans]

thez_yo, on 24 June 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

Yeah, I mean, campanulata, pervillei, and clipeata just to name a few Lowlanders that should want it super hot grow just fine as intermediates and actually prefer those conditions in cultivation from everything I've heard.

Hmm, well that is not quite accurate...  N. campanulata is a lowlander and it sulks in anything except for hot or warm temps.  While N. pervillei and N. clipeata are from higher altitudes and are intermediate species.

[Gareth Davies]

Dave Evans, on 18 October 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

Gareth, you're discounting the fact most difficult species are also from ultramafic soils.  N. edwardsiana is also, but it grows mostly as an epiphyte and so isn't rooted in the soil.  This difficulty of cultivation lines up very well with the exact species which are terrestrial growers on ultramafic formations.  Is this also the case for N. lamii?

How does this species take orchid fertilizer?

I've only just managed to keep this one alive for a few months- I don't dare try fertiliser on it yet. I don't give commercial fertiliser to any of my plants, just coffee in the medium and bugs in the pitchers.

It's an excellent point about species that come from ultramafic soils. N rajah, villosa, northiana, attenboroughii are all "challenging". Dave, which other species come from ultramafic environments?

One of the reasons why I started this thread was define what this species needs- much as we can lump most Neps together with a general method, some species seem to need special treatment.
One thing I've been very surprised by is that this species, which we'd expect to want it cold, actually needs it almost intermediate-highland to get established, although it's possible that it'll need it colder if it ever gets bigger.
Not sure if anyone else finds this, but the issue with many of the difficult species is simply getting them established. I've found rajah is very hard to get settled, a new one that arrives in the post inevitably takes more than a year to start growing- but from there, it's not difficult or slow growing at all.
I'm starting to feel the same about the BE and AW TC clones... others have got spectacular plants of these in all sorts of media, either perlite or live sphagnum, but my plants of both of these have never settled even after a couple of years- whereas villosa from seeds are much happier, healthier and faster growing for me.

[Dave Evans]

Well, organisms modify the systems that activate and deactivate specific genes in the DNA while developing.  TC conditions (the longer the plants are in TC, the greater chance something could be mis-modified) should be able to affect these systems in unknown ways.  Some of the highland vs. lowland characteristics a species has could be set while the seed is germinating in "unusual" conditions.  Which is why seed is the best method for widely distributing Nepenthes and most plants.  TC is the best method for multiplying specific clones.

Another thing.  The altitude is a guide to the expected air temperature.  Not necessarily the ground temperature, where the seedlings are growing.  The rock probably radiates warmth nearly all night long.

Edited by Dave Evans, 18 October 2012 - 16:52 PM.

[Mato]

Dave, could you suggest any media components that would work well for those species that grow in ultramafic soils?

[An D Smith]

Hi Mato

The word 'Ultramafic' derives from the chemical symbols of the metals Magnesium (Mg) and Iron (Fe)and as you would expect, soils that are regarded as ultramafic tend to have a rather high content of these metals, as well other metals such as cadmium and nickel.

I have been experimenting with Laterite (a chemically-weathered tropical clay) as a base componenet in cultivated ultramafic species (N. attenboroughii) and so far, the results have been quite promising. The high iron content of laterite (it is very heavy), coupled with the high magnesium content of freshly ground coffee (coffee treatment) would seem to be the way to go. I use a mix of 50% laterite (available from aquarium supply shops)mixed with 30% perlite and 20% peat.


Cheers

Andy

[Mato]

Thanks, Andy. I've actually been adding a bit of aquatic plant media to my mix already, although I don't think it contains laterite. Regardless, I'll be sure to look into that.

It's interesting that you bring up coffee; I've noticed that the latter plants seem to respond better to it than most others. I wasn't sure if this was based mainly on the pH requirements of the plants, the complex boost of chemicals that coffee contains, or more likely, both. Looking back, many of the most successful coffee experiments involved these plants from ultramafic soils and reinforce your advice.

Edited by Mato, 19 October 2012 - 14:07 PM.

[NepGrower]

An D Smith, on 19 October 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

Hi Mato

The word 'Ultramafic' derives from the chemical symbols of the metals Magnesium (Mg) and Iron (Fe)and as you would expect, soils that are regarded as ultramafic tend to have a rather high content of these metals, as well other metals such as cadmium and nickel.

I have been experimenting with Laterite (a chemically-weathered tropical clay) as a base componenet in cultivated ultramafic species (N. attenboroughii) and so far, the results have been quite promising. The high iron content of laterite (it is very heavy), coupled with the high magnesium content of freshly ground coffee (coffee treatment) would seem to be the way to go. I use a mix of 50% laterite (available from aquarium supply shops)mixed with 30% perlite and 20% peat.


Cheers

Andy

Hi Andy,

Could you check your PMs? I've been trying to get in touch for some time about the N. attenboroughii seedlings.

(Apologies to everyone for the very off-topic post!)

[Dave Evans]

I'm not sure how to go about making an "ultramafic" soil mix.  Seems like it might qualify as a biohazard since it contains poisons...  I suspect the Iron and Magnesium do help the roots develop/grow while the poisonous minerals might boost the various species' immune systems sort of like how a systemic poison can protect.  I don't think the poisonous minerals are needed for improved growth, and well they shouldn't be used anyway!  But it would be pretty darn funny if we could grow Nepenthes on coal ash!

But the main components are Iron and Magnesium based minerals.  So for the main chemistry we just need a mineral source for Iron and Magnesium.  Dolomitic Limestone contains a large portion of Magnesium, but it also contains twice as much Calcium.  Not sure if Calcium can subsitute for Magnesium...  The laterite seems rather interesting Andy, how are you using it?  Seems like it is way too heavy...

Edited by Dave Evans, 24 October 2012 - 02:06 AM.

[bux]

Hi all,

Quote

The word 'Ultramafic' derives from the chemical symbols of the metals Magnesium (Mg) and Iron (Fe)and as you would expect, soils that are regarded as ultramafic tend to have a rather high content of these metals, as well other metals such as cadmium and nickel.

Nepenthes just found there a free place to grow without concurrence, but they don't especially like these metals.

Quote

TC conditions (the longer the plants are in TC, the greater chance something could be mis-modified) should be able to affect these systems in unknown ways.

Sorry Dave but this is wrong, especially if you speak about micropropagation. There is even less chance in TC conditions to get DNA variations than in vivo.

Quote

I use a mix of 50% laterite (available from aquarium supply shops)mixed with 30% perlite and 20% peat

Thank you Andy, I will have a try

Fabrice

Edited by bux, 25 October 2012 - 19:33 PM.

[Dave Evans]

bux, on 25 October 2012 - 19:29 PM, said:

Hi all,


Nepenthes just found there a free place to grow without concurrence, but they don't especially like these metals.


Sorry Dave but this is wrong, especially if you speak about micropropagation. There is even less chance in TC conditions to get DNA variations than in vivo.

Fabrice

Nope, not at all.  The most mutated CP's are from TC.  Nearly all the Dionaea cultivars are from breeding with TC induced mutations.  There should be less chance, but there is something odd about nepenthes and dionaea in TC...

[bux]

Quote

Nope, not at all. The most mutated CP's are from TC. Nearly all the Dionaea cultivars are from breeding with TC induced mutations.

What are we talking about?
- Normal variation during the sexual process (during meïosis, crossing-over...) which produce new phenotypes, sometimes very different from the parents?
Or
- Variation induced by mutagenic substances?
Or something else?

Quote

There should be less chance, but there is something odd about nepenthes and dionaea in TC...

I think you confuse with TC plants not correctly maintained in a long term, therefore having poor growth ex-vitro.

Fabrice

[manders]

Dave Evans, on 24 October 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

I'm not sure how to go about making an "ultramafic" soil mix.  Seems like it might qualify as a biohazard since it contains poisons...  I suspect the Iron and Magnesium do help the roots develop/grow while the poisonous minerals might boost the various species' immune systems sort of like how a systemic poison can protect.  I don't think the poisonous minerals are needed for improved growth, and well they shouldn't be used anyway!  But it would be pretty darn funny if we could grow Nepenthes on coal ash!

But the main components are Iron and Magnesium based minerals.  So for the main chemistry we just need a mineral source for Iron and Magnesium.  Dolomitic Limestone contains a large portion of Magnesium, but it also contains twice as much Calcium.  Not sure if Calcium can subsitute for Magnesium...  The laterite seems rather interesting Andy, how are you using it?  Seems like it is way too heavy...

Sequestrone plant tonic sold over here for iron deficiency and epsom salts would supply any amount of iron and magnesium required.  Magnesium and calcium do different functions so are not interchangeable.

[Dave Evans]

bux, on 26 October 2012 - 14:29 PM, said:

What are we talking about?
- Normal variation during the sexual process (during meïosis, crossing-over...) which produce new phenotypes, sometimes very different from the parents?
Or
- Variation induced by mutagenic substances?
Or something else?

I think you confuse with TC plants not correctly maintained in a long term, therefore having poor growth ex-vitro.

Fabrice

Well, that was the first one I mentioned (too long in the test tube).  But I've come to realize certain plants are mutation prone, like Nepenthes.  I don't think the DNA in a single plant stays the same throughout the life of the plant.  Each flowering branch probably has unique mutations are are no longer exactly equal on a genetic level.  So while most plant kinds are easily maintained or multipled in TC, some do mutate more--but I'm not sure what the mechanism could be (genetic damage and repair?).

[Marc S.]

Hi,
there could also be stable but reversible epigenetic modifications like methylation or acetylation of the DNA as a response to enviromentional changes or other factors. So these plants are geneticaly identical but show different phenotypes due to these "modifications", if I remember well.

Cheers
Marc

[Simon Lumb]

Hi Andy I have also tried the laterite with my attenboroughii seedlings since you suggested it to me at the start of the year and because I had such good germination and plenty of seedlings I've got them growing in various compost; pure sphagnum, peat/perlite, peat/laterite and peat /manado (another aquatic substrate). Whilst none of the seedlings are particularly large approx 2cm after 12months I haven't noticed a real difference between any of the different substrates. The only time I noticed some of the seedlings growing quicker was during the summer months when the seedlings trays were standing in water. I stopped this now because winter is setting in and standing water in cooler air is not a good idea. In June I made a trip to the Marai Parai on this ridge there are many streams running down and at the edges almost underwater at times were literally dozens of very small rajah seedlings. Do you remember these Marc S? I suspect these plants were enjoying the minerals from the water but they showed no adverse effects from the ground being saturated. S

[Marc S.]

Hi Simon,
sure I remember them! The water also looked quite saturated with iron salts and the N. rajah seedlings where just growing beside the little streams or even in it. I also think the plants weren't affected at all by the minerals.



I just now that Siggi Hartmeyer cultivates N. attenboroughii quite well - his plants are some of the "biggest" in cultivation. He uses a big drainage layer of seramis (kind of clay granulate) with some peat sand mix on top.

Cheers
Marc