59 replies to this topic

[meizwang]

so this seed batch turned out to have a number of interesting and colorful individuals.  Here's one that stuck out from all the others-it kept Adrian Slack's white lid, which was one of the feature I was after in the cross.  Perhaps a few other choice individuals may spring out of this seed cross-I know a few other people have made the same cross.  


So far, this individual is looking very promising.  It has a vibrant pinkish-red body and red-veined white top, which is an excellent contrast of colors:

S. x Adrian Slack x Judith Hindle:

Edited by meizwang, 15 May 2012 - 02:52 AM.

[Defalotus]

Looks great Mike! The one I have has the AS lip but a totally different lid. One of my favorite plants.

[meizwang]

Thanks Eric!  I think some of the seedlings I have distributed may be worthy of cultivars-I sent out the most colorful ones at the time, and they may prove to be better than the one pictured above.  


Fellow readers, what do you think about the plant pictured above?  Feel free to respond to the poll at the top of the page-I'd love to hear what your opinion is.  I think a lot of plants have been registered that are sub-par, and I don't want to add something that most people don't find worthy.

Cheers!
-Mike

[Marlon]

Its a beautiful sarracenia

[alexa]

Hi Mike

I've voted for yes, but only just!

Its a very nice plant, I tend to agree that too many plants have been registered that don't deserve it and I would like to see a little more work with this plant, maybe back cross it with S "Judith Hindle" or take a totally different route.

I think its very important that only the best plants are registered as cultivars, Adrian Salck (the man not the plant) as stated in the articel recently posted here would only put forward for registration a very small number of plants that he would consider 'finished' (a term for a cross that is still happening that I've just coined!).  What do you think?

Don't mean to sound negative, its a good looking plant, keep up the good work.

Regards
Alex.

[meizwang]

Thank you for your honesty Alex-that was exactly what I'm looking for!  And thank you all for the votes-keep them coming!  If you don't like the clone, feel free to say so and let us hear your opinion.

[Miroslav Srba]

I also thank for this discussion. I also thank for this poll. I think it is good way.

I also agree that the plant is very nice and much better than many Sarracenia cultivars registered in the past. So my vote is also for yes.

You know - my main specialization in CPs is breeding and genetics. I have performed few crosses in Nepenthes, Pinguicula, Utricularia and many in Sarracenia. Approx. 400 different crosses. See: http://sarracenia.cz/doc/CPList.doc About 50 new ones are not listed there. But all of them I selected only about 5-7 clones which i believe to be valuable enought to be registered. Two of them already registered.

Adrian Slack totally changed the situation. I performed 7 different hybrids in 2006, thanks to Mike King. I have selected for example 18 clones of S. leucophylla x ADS... Ussually I take only 2 representatives. But from 7 crosses were sellected about 40 collection clones and 7-10 of them are also extremely valuable. Or better say: I feel they are. You already saw some of them here.

... but what happened when every grower of S. 'Adrian Slack' would register 7-10 new cultivars in future...

Well, because the breeding is my serious interest, I try to compare this situation with classic ornamental plants such as tulips, daffodils, roses, lilies, irises... There were thousands of registered cultivars. See for example this catalogue: Lukon It is easy to imagine similar assortment of Sarracenia. Or 500 snowdrop cultivars presented in this excellent monograph: Snowdrops . Great experience to see this book - highly recomended!


... so i do not agree that there were to many registered CP cultivars. Situation in the classics is less clear, I would say worse. I feel that situation in CP breeding and appropriate "legislative" is 100-150 years retarded after the classic ornamentals. I explain this to my students on several examples. This might be because we restarted the breeding boom after Victorian era, when many Nepenthes and Sarracenia cultivares were developed. The people in the early 19 century also fing that it is possible to improve tulips and great boom of their breeding started in Netherlands...

... so let's establish some work-group with CP authorities to improve this situation. Let's learn how it works in the other ornamentals. I think a lot about that.

_________________________________

BTW: I follwed on suggestion by Dr. Miloslav Studnicka. He recommended me to find some celar system to sort the Sarracenia hybrids to have better view for evaluating of each cross. For example like in lillies, there are "Oriental hybrids" "Asian hybrids" "Turban hybrids"... and about 10 more categories. I start to use 6 categories:
* Upright with fenestration
* Upright without fenestration
* Semierect with fenestration (like S. x mitcheliana)
* Semierect without fenestration (like S. x catesbaei)
* Purpurea-like hybrids
* Psittacina-like hybrids

- this system seems to work very well and it helps czech beginning growers to get oriantation in plenty of available hybrids. There is question if establish special category for "minor-like" hybrids? This time i cover them under upright hybrids.

- see for example this link with this sorting of hybrids:
Sarracenia hybrids

Edited by Miroslav Srba, 09 May 2012 - 07:23 AM.

[Defalotus]

Any flowers this year Mike or are they still too young?

[Alexis]

Solid white lids are a desirable trait. Presumably it's why 'Eva' was registered.

[meizwang]

Defalotus-only one flower from the seed batch so far, but the clone wasn't very special looking.  The flower, however, was a deep dark red and was really beautiful!  Suppose I'm used to species flowers since I don't grow many hybrids.

Miroslav,  

It's very clear you're on the forefront of Sarracenia breeding, and I really appreciate your perspective on the whole thing!    I really like the idea of categorizing each hybrid type-I think you're onto something!

One cross could potentially yield a handful of individuals worth naming-first thing that comes to mind is S. x catesbaei.  There are so many amazing offspring from that one cross since the parents have such a huge amount of genetic diversity.  But at what point do we say we've registered too many catesbaeis, or does it matter?  

  I suppose if you compare Sarracenias to roses or any other type of plant, we barely publish anything in the CP world!  In my opinion,  the issue isn't that there are too many Sarracenia cultivars being published-it's more about what is the criteria to have a cultivar published?  Right now, take a picture, make a description, publish it in a widely circulated journal, and then you can have it registered.  


What do you all think about S. x Chase Brew:  S. x Chase Brew description

Edited by meizwang, 09 May 2012 - 16:18 PM.

[frangelo]

meizwang, on 09 May 2012 - 16:09 PM, said:

What do you all think about S. x Chase Brew:  S. x Chase Brew description

It’s a truly ugly and anonymous plant, a horrendous CV

[ada]

Mike,  I would like to see this plant later in the year.I f the red intensifies and the white lid stops white,it would be a great CV.
I have seen some LW X adrian slack crosses from your side of the pond that are very nice too(rob co).
But the chas's brew is just plain ordinary.Any plant worthy of CV status should be  different,eye catching and make you want it straight away in my opinion.
ada

[meizwang]

Thank you Ada for your input, and that's a very good point!  When the lid first opened, it wasn't very white, but a week later, I took the pictures above.  I bet the color will intensify, but only time will tell.  It is rather shocking that this clone does have intense colors to it early on in the season, and it's exciting to know that many clones develop their deepest colors as the season progresses.  

The mother Adrian Slack plant isn't even worth photographing-there's barely any white in the lid, the mouth doesn't have that brilliant deep red color, etc.  I have to give the clone some credit though-it can be colorful this time of the year, and mine was recently divided and transplanted.

Rob Co's Adrian Slack hybrids are to die for-he's clearly a very talented breeder!  I think there was one that was crossed with Leah Wilkerson-they look like cutting edge hybrids to me!  The colors were intensified by the fact that he grew them under twin wall polycarbonate in full sun, and he was able to bring every clone to their fullest potential.

Edited by meizwang, 09 May 2012 - 18:59 PM.

[Amar]

Alexis, on 09 May 2012 - 15:50 PM, said:

Solid white lids are a desirable trait. Presumably it's why 'Eva' was registered.

Interesting, I didn't know it was registered, where can I find that info? Thanks!

[olive84]

Waouhhh it's a very very beautiful hybrid !! Red and white color are very attractive.

Oliv

[meizwang]

Thanks Olive84!  

Amar-I don't think S. x Eva is a registered cultivar.  

After looking at the list of all the published cultivars, there's really not that many. AS my friend Rob Co and I discussed earlier this week, it's important to have many clones of these plants before they are published so that others can enjoy them.  One cultivar that comes to mind: S. oreophila 'Don Schnell.'  That plant died in cultivation before it could be distributed, so even though we can see a picture of it, it's not obtainable!  ARG!!!  

I added 2 more pictures above, and the more I look at this ASxJH individual, the more it seems like it's something special.  But here's the question: is this the best one from the seed batch?  I think more time is needed to evaluate this question.  In the meantime, take a look at two other seedlings from the same cross.  


To say the least, this one is definitely interesting.  However, it doesn't have the white top:





And here's another individual, which looks like a dwarf Adrian Slack to me.  This pitcher  isn't fully developed, so the pictures below  are not a good representation of the clone.  However, I'm definitely scratching my head-there's maybe 2 other seedlings similar to this one.  Are they better than the white top/pink bodied clone?  The next 3 photos are of the same clone:








I bet that green section in the lid will go away as the pitcher matures:

Edited by meizwang, 11 May 2012 - 05:50 AM.

[Defalotus]

Heres my plant. Very interesting lid. I'm anxious to see what the fall pitchers will look like.

[Kiwi Earl]

Good discussion Mike.

There are a number of ways of looking at the question of what makes a worthy Sarracenia cultivar, particularly those derived from cultivation. The number of registered cultivars is small, but I find value in this. Within Sarracenia there is much inherent variability encountered almost on a daily basis, not least when it comes to hybrids. Many of us have informal names for such plants within our collections that exhibit a pleasing appearance of difference. It is my personal view that in contrast to many other botanical genera, registered cultivars in Sarracenia should be those that express truly exceptional traits, be they colour - from blended to demarcated, form or, of course, a combination of both. In my view, those specimens applied for the status of and accepted as registered cultivars should be truly notable and, therefore, historically significant within the myriad in cultivation. Therefore, in terms of applying as a grower to have any Sarracenia clone accepted as a registered cultivar one must endeavour to give requisite and, as far as is possible within one's enthusiasm, unemotional consideration as to whether or not the individual is truly worthy of such recognition.

Contemplating the current list of registered cultivars suggests a number were promoted by growers based on a range of motivations none of which should be disregarded outright in and of themselves. To suggest a few, it may well be that some growers are motivated by commercial returns; others by the return of feeling proud of a planned for outcome via public acknowledgement; others still by the possible reward of status. I suspect there are Sarracenia cultivars that are borne from each of these. And, I agree, there are some that are, with respect, possibly somewhat short of the mark of representing the exceptional.

As I say, I would like that the registration of cultivars was governed across the Sarracenia collective by a measurement of that which is genuinely exceptional. That doesn't exclude, for example a hybrid or species that exhibits particularly fine characteristics within its foundational classification such as, let's say, a particularly noteworthy S. x catesbaei.

As some will know, I recently had a cultivar registered. I only proceeded on the basis of my experience of many years growing, breeding and observing Sarracenia (including via multi-media). Long consideration and consultation backed by an appropriate number of seasons with the plant at maturity for the characteristics to be clearly established, helped me arrive at the conclusion that I genuinely believed it was historically noteworthy.

I, for one, look forward to the discovery and cultivated production of many more cultivars so long as they are indeed notable.

[meizwang]

Thanks for sharing your perspective Earl!  A lot of what is perceived as noteworthy and exceptional is in the eye of the beholder, which makes me think the best way to know if it's worthy or not is via public opinion.

However, even public opinion can be divided-let's take S. x Leah Wilkerson for example.  Personally,  I find this clone to be extremely beautiful and noteworthy.  However, there are some people who think this plant wasn't worth naming  

In cultivation, there are tons of pictures out there of S. Leah Wilkerson that are less than noteable, probably because the clone is tough to bring to its fullest color potential.  This may be one of the reasons why a few people have reservations about it.

IF we look at  S. x Adrian Slack for example-imagine if these pictures below were in the publication-lots of people would think it's not a noteworthy plant:





But we all know that when plants are freshly divided and transplanted, they sometimes don't color up well until the following season. When left untouched, Adrian Slack is indeed amazing:

Edited by meizwang, 12 May 2012 - 17:16 PM.

[ada]

Mike, the point you make above is a good one.Any potential cultivar needs to be grown in a variety of places and conditions to see how it performs.
I have not registered any plants but have sent a few out and about to friends to grow.One or two do quite well.One plant i didn't even recognise when i saw it!
I'm trying to breed plants that do well in a colder northern climate,this includes for size and colour,this gets back to your point.
Not all clones/cultivars grow the same where i live as compared to more southern climates,mainly due to heat and light levels but also due to a shorter growing season.
Its all a very interesting passion and doesn't always go the way we expect(as rob is finding out).
ada